GUITARIST PETER BERNSTEIN IS UNIQUE IN HIS FIELD.
MOST ELECTRIC GUITARISTS THESE DAYS HAVE A SURFEIT OF PEDALS AND KNOBS IN WHICH TO TURN OR PRESS, CREATING DIFFERENT SOUNDS AND EFFECTS.
IN CONTRAST, BERNSTEIN HAS ESCHEWED THESE DEVICES, CREATING A SOUND DEFINED BY THE SIMPLE TOUCH OF HIS FINGERS ON THE STRINGS, SOMETHING QUITE UNIQUE IN THIS DAY AND AGE.
RECENTLY TAKING PART IN A “GUITAR SUMMIT” WITH LARRY KOONSE AND YOTAM SILBERSTEIN, BERNSTEIN TOOK SOME TIME OUT TO SHARE HIS THOUGHTS ON HIS CAREER THAT INCLUDES A STINT WITH THE LEGENDARY JIMMY COBB AS WELL AS HIS DECADES LONG ASSOCIATION WITH LARRY GOLDINGS AND BILL STEWART.
THE CONVERSATION WAS, AS IS HIS PLAYING, WELL THOUGHT OUT, AND WARMLY REFLECTIVE.
I FIRST MET YOU AT THE JAZZ BAKERY WITH COBB’S MOB
We’d have a week long gig there. I really miss those days
I NOTICED IT BACK THEN , AND IT’S STILL TRUE-YOU’RE ONE OF THE FEW GUITARISTS THAT DOESN’T USE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEDALS TO GET DIFFERENT SOUNDS. YOU STICK WITH ONE SOUND AND BASICALLY ONE GUITAR. WAS THAT A CONSCIOUS DECISION?
Nobody really told me.
It was a reaction to when I was coming up.
I was a student in the mid 1980s, just learning how to play. I went to some colleges; went to Rutgers for a year and studied with Ted Dunbar and William Patterson. Those were the years of the Roland Jazz Chorus; everybody was playing with a lot of reverb with the Chorus. I heard all of my fellow students dabbling with that.
I like all of those guys that play with it, like Mike Stern, Pat Metheny and John Scofield. Those guys had a more “contemporary” sound.
But what I was appreciating from the people that I was listening to from earlier generations, before any of that technology existed, guys like Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian, was that they played this big guitar, like a box, through an amp. They would use the amp to amplify some of the acoustic properties of the instrument.
So, anyone from Wes Montgomery, to people as different as Jimmy Raney or Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell and Grant Green, they all sounded completely different even though they were playing basically the same equipment. That made their differences come down to their touch on the instrument and their musical choices, their musical language and how they would develop their own vocabulary.
What I noticed about people my age was that we couldn’t play yet, but when we would turn on the Chorus, we’d all sound the same. It was something contemporary, but it was a very similar sound. The Chorus covered up what they were trying to develop in their own touch.
I just made it a point that I was going to try to develop my sound based on my touch on the instrument and what I play.
As I got better quality guitars ( I had a couple Gibson guitars, and then found an incredible Archtop), I did experiment a little with pedals and delays, but I didn’t like what they did to how the notes came out. They changed the articulation , attack and projection of the notes; I found that pedals never really enhanced my sound.
What enhanced my sound was trying to get better! (laughs) Get a better touch on the instrument.
The more I saw people going in the other direction, it then became a conscious decision. “Good for you; I’ll do this!”
So, it wasn’t any kind of political statement where I was going to stand over here while everybody’s over there. It was that I felt those things weren’t helping me out.
I’d find myself in bands where my sound was necessary. I got to play with a wide variety of musicians.
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“I found that pedals never really enhanced my sound…What enhanced my sound was trying to get better! (laughs)”
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WHO INITIALLY?
I got to play with Lou Donaldson and Lee Konitz.
Those two guys are born a year apart. They’re both disciples of Charlie Parker, but they were completely different. I might even be playing the same song, like “Star Eyes”, but they were so different. So, I felt that my job was to play musically with both of them to enhance the situation. It didn’t require pedals for either one.
It showed me that there was variety, but the variety comes from the personality. You couldn’t have two more different personalities than Konitz and Donaldson, even though they are of the same generation as to where they musically came from, but they are still totally different.
That showed me that it’s not about the things that you put on your instrument; it’s how you fit in musically and if you have a sound and style that is flexible.
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“Playing music with someone requires a certain feeling of ‘let’s do this together’”.
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A lot of people learn to use all of these pedals so that they can fit in with people that do different things. I really admire people that have mastered the pedals. I love to go hear Bill Frisell, what he does to enhance his sound. He has a beautiful touch on the instrument anyway, so he’s enhancing that.
It’s just not for me. I haven’t found the time to sit down and find a way to see how it enhances my sound. I’ll use a lever pedal, as I don’t want to sound totally dry; but I’m basically trying to bring out the natural sound of the guitar.
I always feel like nobody ever gives piano players a hard time for playing the piano! (laughs)
No one ever asks “why aren’t you playing synthesizers? That’s the latest thing?” It’s simply because they don’t want to, and that there’s a lot of music you can play on the acoustic piano that doesn’t have to do with electronics.
I feel like it’s a double standard; everybody expects guitar players to be “contemporary” and use these sounds. Some guys do it really well and do it with a personality. But it’s because of the personality, not because of the sounds.
I have used them in the past; they don’t enhance the sound, but they do change the way that the notes come out. Not for the better, for me at least.
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“it’s not about the things that you put on your instrument; it’s how you fit in musically and if you have a sound and style that is flexible”
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SO HOW DOES A GUITARIST CREATE HIS OWN SOUND AND STYLE?
Music is a language, and people learn language by mimicking others and appreciating as their ears develop, and their ability to speak develops, the can appreciate how individual someone can develop their instrument.
Everyone is part of the lineage. We all have ancestors; that’s just part of being a human at a certain time.
I’m in my 50s now; there are a whole lot of cats that are now younger than I am. They sound good, and they were born in the 90s, when I was making records. It gives you some kind of perspective.
At the same time, I’m just a person trying to deal with my instrument and learn music. I haven’t left the etiquette of playing tunes, playing forms, playing blues, playing standards…I like playing all kinds of music. It really has to do with learning music.
So, it’s like the way you develop your spoken language. As your ear gets better you can mimic things, but you can also use your taste not to always use it. It’s like “I’m going to quote some Shakespeare, but I’m not going to walk around all day only speaking Shakespeare”.
It’s not always appropriate. If you’re buying something at the store, you’re not going to speak like (Twelfth Night). You need to absorb the language and personalize it. Then, when you play, just like when you speak, it’s a combination of all of those things that you’ve learned and digested.
That’s the big thing about having an identity. I think that it’s a development thing. It’s part. of absorbing your own influences, but then also having the courage to play your own stuff Just because you can play somebody else’s lick, that’s not going to help you to tell your own story. That’s hopefully something that’s just along the way for you to develop your own voice.
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“It’s like ‘I’m going to quote some Shakespeare, but I’m not going to walk around all day only speaking Shakespeare’”.
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YOU’VE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH MANY GREAT DRUMMERS, INCLUDING JIMMY COBB, AL FOSTER AND BILL STEWART. THEY ARE ALL DIVERSE. WHAT DID YOU LEARN FIRST FROM COBB?
Jimmy Cobb is the elder; he was born in the 20s. Foster is a good 12 years younger than Cobb, and he came up in another time.
Al Foster was a more recent association, and I’m thrilled that he’s willing to do some gigs with me. I did do one with him a few years ago with Jorge Rossy, and did a few gigs after that. Playing night after night with him it was wonderful to hear what an original voice that he is on the drums, and how he personalizes everything that he plays. But it was still in the service of the music.
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“It’s part. of absorbing your own influences, but then also having the courage to play your own stuff”
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HOW ABOUT BILL STEWART?
I go way back with Bill Stewart, back when I was a student at William Patterson College in 1986. He was already very far along as far as having his own identity. He was coming through all of those drummers before him; Roy Haynes, Tony Williams and Jack DeJohnette. He’s a real student of the music.
He came up in it; his dad was a trombone player. He’s just one of the most mature, together musicians that I have ever met of my own age. He’s a year older, but had so much experience and already had his own thing.
So we just started playing together in a group with another friend, Larry Goldings. He’s also way mature beyond his years, and sounded like an old guy when he was 15.
We were able to get together as a trio, and luckily have been able to keep going and keep playing together, playing records and doing gigs. We’re playing more than ever as a touring band. That’s just an incredible blessing
Bill’s just great. Hearing him every night, he always has surprises; he’s an incredible improviser.
I met Jimmy Cobb a little bit after that, when I was a student at The New School. Arnie Lawrence was running the school, God bless him. He wasn’t about having a traditional jazz academy, just giving people information about scales. He wanted to have the greatest musicians that were around to come and interact with the students.
He got Jimmy Cobb to be a teacher, but he wasn’t a teacher in the conventional way. There were no homework assignments, handouts or power point presentations; he just sat and played with us.
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“Hearing (Bill Stewart) every night, he always has surprises
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What we got from Cobb was “That’s the size of the beat. That’s the width of the beat”, and he’s swinging. If you can get along with that ride cymbal and hold on with it and get in with it, you’re getting better.”
Every time that I got to play with Jimmy Cobb, I just felt like I was aspiring to get the feeling of the pulse, his quarter note, the way he played time and drove the band.
Luckily, we young guys, like my and Brad Mehldau, got him to do some gigs outside of school. We got to play at the Village Gate. Then, in 1992 I got to make my own album for Criss Cross records, so I asked Jimmy Cobb and John Webber, the great bass player that Jimmy loved to play with, as he was coming out of the Paul Chambers school.
We got to play some gigs every year, and it really became his band, Cobb’s Mob. His attitude was, “If I know it, we’ll play it; whatever you guys want.” So we figured out tunes he’d like to play. It was his band, but he gave us a lot of freedom to decide what we wanted to play.
I got to play a few times at the Vanguard with Cobb and Harold Mabern. Earlier we had Richard Lyons on piano, who’s just incredible, and even a couple years older than Cobb. The elders came up from a different time, so when you’re playing with them, you’re playing with the guys that were around when it was coming to be.
Jimmy was a beautiful guy; he gave so much to us. Every night he gave it all, 100%
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“If you can get along with that ride cymbal and hold on with it and get in with it, you’re getting better”
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DID YOU EVER HAVE A GIG THAT FELT LIKE A “BAPTISM BY FIRE”?
Many!
Every time I play with my elders, there’s a level of intensity because you want to feel like you’re a part of their world.
I’ve been lucky to play with a lot of my elder/heroes like George Coleman, Bobby Hutcherson, and Sonny Rollins. I played in his band for 1 ½ years. He didn’t work all that much, but we did about 30 gigs.
It was incredible to be with Rollins. He helped create the alphabet that we use to form our words. He taught us how to take these old tunes and make them hip. He developed the language, in the generation right after Charlie Parker. He also came out of Coleman Hawkins, which never left his playing.
He was an historical figure. It would be incredible-we’d be playing a tune right now that reminds you that jazz is of the moment. Any time there’s improvisation, it involves a challenge to be in the moment, and not following some old recipe.
Yes, there is a recipe, but there is also a space to create and try to develop your own voice in order to contribute in a way that someone else wouldn’t have contributed in the same way. That’s the beauty of it.
We continue to be baptized every time you play with somebody strong! (laughs)
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“Every time I play with my elders, there’s a level of intensity because you want to feel like you’re a part of their world”
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HAVE ANY OF THESE ELDERS GIVEN YOU ADVICE THAT YOU STILL CARRY ALONG?
I feel that it was more by example.
George Coleman will sit on the phone and talk about chord changes for hours. That’s the advice; stay interested in this stuff.
Harold Mabern would talk about tunes; he was still caring about the music. It wasn’t like it was a chore or a thing that they had to do, or a job. They were still exploring, and kept young by playing.
George still calls me up and says “We’re going to play this tune”. He’s still thinking about new tunes to play. Then, we’ll get at the gig, and of course he’ll play other ones that he just thought of that day.
There’s that baptism by fire with George Coleman. When he calls a tune that you kind of know, and then he says “We’re going to play it in B Natural”, which definitely keeps you on your toes. You can never relax and think that you know what’s coming.
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“(Sonny Rollins) helped create the alphabet that we use to form our words”
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DO YOU APPROACH THE GUITAR DIFFERENTLY WHEN WITH A PIANIST LIKE MEHLDAU AS OPPOSED TO A KEYBOARDIST SUCH AS LONNIE SMITH?
It’s more about their personalities.
When you play with an organ player, there is a role for the guitar/ When they’re soloing with their right hand they have their left hand doing the bass, so you kind of are the third hand in between that, and try to fit in.,
With a piano player, they can comp for themselves, so they are covering more of the musical space. So, you have to play differently to try and fit in with less density.
But every organ and piano player is different.
It has to do more with their feel and their approach, the choices that they make.
With a piano player, bass player and drummer, I might not even attempt to accompany them at all, unless I can hear a space where I can contribute something. Otherwise, I just listen.
With a quartet like that, I feel that I’m functioning more like a horn player or a singer; just be out front .
But with an organ, there’s a space for you to comp.
That’s why I love playing with Larry and Bill in an organ trio; I get to play melodies as well as comp. I have both of those roles to play, which I love.
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“George Coleman will sit on the phone and talk about chord changes for hours. That’s the advice; stay interested in this stuff”
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IS THERE ANY MUSICIAN , LIVING OR DEAD, YOU’D PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
That’s a financial consideration as to if I can spend $1000. (laughs)
I would still try to see Herbie Hancock every time I get a chance. People like that who are always surprising. You listen to a record, and that’s great, but to see somebody like that create on the spot reminds you of the power of improvised music.
There are many people of my own generation that inspire me as well.
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“unless I can hear a space where I can contribute something… I just listen”
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ANY ONE IN PARTICULAR?
Brad Mehldau is always great to listen to; he’s always searching for new things. But there are so many great young players, it’s hard to think of just one. There are a lot of young musicians that make you realize that jazz is alive and well.
I just try to go out to the clubs and see who’s around. I’m better at that than checking out peoples’ records.
Whoever’s at the Vanguard, I’ll try to go by and listen.
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“Harold Mabern would talk about tunes; he was still caring about the music. It wasn’t like it was a chore or a thing that they had to do, or a job. They were still exploring, and kept young by playing”
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DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE WITH GUITARISTS?
I wouldn’t say that it’s unique to the guitar, but I think there’s a lot more virtuosity in the music now.
Everyone can do incredible feats, and have shredding chops. I feel that’s great, but if that comes at the expense of developing your own personality, then it becomes focused the wrong thing. But that’s all personal and subjective.
I remember hearing a great quote from Dave Liebman, “you can tell what’s important to a musician the first 8 bars, sometimes in only 4 bars”. That’s all it takes to learn what’s the priority level of where their coming from. Is it their sound? Phrasing? Or just playing a lot of stuff? What’s important to that person?
That’s what I listen for: What seems to be important to them.
And of course I have things that are important to me, and I hope it lines up with them. And it can sound totally different. I just appreciate people who are out to get a good personal sound, and although it’s a cliché, being able to tell a story. I want to hear a narrative in their playing, as opposed to just playing a bunch of stuff on chords and trying to make your head spin with dazzling technique.
I want to hear a story unfold; that’s what keeps me listening. Where are they going with this? What’s going to happen next?
And, there’s a structural thing that holds it all together. An improvised story. If you hear someone playing what they already know, it’s less interesting. I can appreciate what they’re doing, but if they’re doing it on every song, it becomes less interesting.
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“Any time there’s improvisation, it involves a challenge to be in the moment, and not following some old recipe”
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ANYONE ON WORLD HISTORY THAT YOU’D LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Just keeping with musicians, I would have loved to have been around Elvin Jones
I got to see him a bunch of times.
Art Blakey, too; I never got to interact with him. OF course, Charlie Parker, Miles and Bud Powell. People I’ve only known through people that tell stories. People like Al Foster talks about Miles a lot. That’s a perspective that you don’t get from biographies
I’d love to have met Sly Stone; I love his kind of music. Aretha Franklin, Marvin Gaye, artists from that world.
It would also be fascinating to sit down with Ravel and Satie; I’m sure that they were characters, in how they changed music, like Stravinsky.
And there’s the father of everything, Bach. What was his process; he basically created the world that we all live in, in terms of harmony and voice leading. He cracked the code of our tempered system.
And he did it while having like 25 kids! How did he find the time?!?
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When (George Coleman) calls a tune that you kind of know, and then he says “We’re going to play it in B Natural”, which definitely keeps you on your toes. You can never relax and think that you know what’s coming”
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IS THERE ANY PHILOSOPHY OR RELIGION THAT IS YOUR MORAL COMPASS TO MOTIVATE YOU?
I’ve read a lot of eastern things, in doing so you realize what a failed Buddhist you are (laughs)
I read a lot of the eastern philosophies as how to put yourself as a conscious human being in perspective. I wouldn’t say that I’m a practicing Buddhist or a diligent reader of that stuff.
I’ve read Tao Te Ching and various other writings, and it has effected me. It’s something that I look towards, but I can’t call my self a successful Buddhist. It would be nice if we could really live that way. It’s more of an aspirational thing than claiming to be there. It is something to look towards.
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“(Bach) cracked the code of our tempered system”
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ARE THERE PARTICULAR BOOKS YOU’VE READ THAT YOU WISH OTHERS WOULD READ?
No, but I have turned some friends on to eastern writing books
One of my favorite authors is Paul Auster. I love his stories and how his things go. I love how he writes about the power of coincidence and circumstance.
But with kids, I’m not as much as a reader as I used to be. (laughs)
As soon as I sit down, if I start reading, I’m so tired, its hard to keep my eyes open!
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“I want to hear a narrative in their playing, as opposed to just playing a bunch of stuff on chords and trying to make your head spin with dazzling technique”
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
My family, and getting out to play music with people.
Musical friends have a deep bond. We have to agree on everything. Playing music with someone requires a certain feeling of “let’s do this together”.
To me, the best musicians to play with are the ones that have the feeling of generosity, of empathy, and wanting to make the people around them sound good. Not just about “I want to sound good; I want to do my thing.” I like the people that are strong enough to make the people around them better.
It’s a life philosophy.
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“I want to hear a story unfold; that’s what keeps me listening. Where are they going with this? What’s going to happen next?”
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CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE?
Jim Hall was such a great accompanist
I remember playing with him as a student, and I felt like “this guy makes me feel like I can play”. How did he do that? I want to give that to other people!
It’s a life-study of not only music, but of keeping your priorities and perspective intact.
You have to temper your ego.
And yes, you need ego to get better and to be able to stand up there with other people that play, but you have to be subjugating your ego to be part of a larger thing.
It’s the relationship between the individual and the community; by being a strong individual, but not a selfish individual, you can make your community better. A community of strong individuals is one in which everyone thrives.
That’s the beauty of jazz.
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“I remember playing with(Jim Hall) as a student, and I felt like “this guy makes me feel like I can play”. How did he do that? I want to give that to other people!”
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Wynton (Marsalis) talks about its connection to democracy. (Jazz) is a beautiful template and model for how humans can get along without being faceless. You’re not just a number
Playing music is one of the highest things people can do
It should be raised to that level of it being the greatest thing to do with other people, to develop not only yourself, but to develop your ability to make the people around you stronger
Music is a big part of society. We love our pop stars, and there’s a sense of celebrity that goes along with it, but there is another side to it.
Why is it important for people to be able to lock in a groove together? What that involves is not just playing your instrument; but you want to do it not only because if feels good, and it’s one of the highest things that you can do as a human, interacting with other humans on that level
There are other ways to develop that sense of community, like religion and church, but music is right up there.
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“the best musicians to play with are the ones that have the feeling of generosity, of empathy, and wanting to make the people around them sound good”
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MUSIC PROVES THAT THERE HAS TO BE A CREATOR, BECAUSE MUSIC SERVES NO EVOLUTIONALY PURPOSE. IT GOES AGAINST THE SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
It does feed us, but in a different way. I agree!
ANY FUTURE GOALS?
I want to get into writing more. I want to find some time to write for large ensembles
A big band might not be realistic, but I want to expand my palate a little bit and write music for some other instruments.
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“Playing music is one of the highest things people can do”
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EACH YEAR, JAZZ JOURNALISTS CREATE A “TOP TEN” LIST OF “THE BEST” JAZZ ALBUMS OF THE YEAR. BUT HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE WHAT IS “BEST”?
I HAVE A SIMPLE THEORY THAT “PEOPLE VOTE WITH THEIR FEET”. THEREFORE, WHICH ALBUMS THIS PAST YEAR HAVE I LISTENED TO THE MOST? THIS IS WHY PETER BERNSTEIN GETS ON MY “TOP TEN” LISTS SO OFTEN. IN THIS AGE OF “EFFECTS” AND ABSTRACTIONS, MY EARS KEEP VEERING TO THE NATURAL TOUCH OF PETER BERNSTEIN. GIVE HIM A TRY, AND LET YOU EARS DO YOUR VOTING.