LIKE THE MUSIC ITSELF, BEING A JAZZ ARTIST THESE DAYS REQUIRES THE ABILITY TO IMPROVISE.
ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED SAXOPHONISTS, TIM WARFIELD HAS BALANCED A CAREER OF SOLO RECORDING, SERVING AS A SIDEMAN, DOING STUDIO WORK AND ALSO SPENDING TIME IN JAZZ EDUCATION AT MESSIAH COLLEGE.
HIS SOPRANO AND TENOR SAX CAN BE HEARD ON SOUNDS RANGING FROM THE COSBY SHOW TO SESSIONS WITH SHIRLEY SCOTT, DIZZY GILLESPIE, AND MOST RECENTLY WITH TERELL STAFFORD’S TEMPLE UNIVERSITY JAZZ BAND.
WITH SUCH A WIDE RANGE OF ROLES IN HIS CAREER, WARFIELD SEEMS LIKE THE PERFECT CHOICE TO GIVE SAGE ADVICE TO THOSE THINKING OF MAKING A LIFE OF JAZZ THEIR CAREER, AS HE’S LIVED THROUGH ALL OF ITS ASPECTS.
WE RECENTLY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GLEAN SOME WISDOM FROM HIM, AND TO SAY THE LEAST, THE CHAT WAS, WELL, EDUCATIONAL
WHRE DID YOU GROW UP IN PHILLY?
I’m not from Philadelphia.
My connection with it is that my father was from West Philly. Half of my family was born in raised, but I’m actually being there much more now
YOU’RE DOING TRIBUTE TO THE JAZZ GREATS FROM PHILLY ON THIS RECENT ALBUM. GUYS LIKE STAN GETZ, JOHN COLTRANE, LEE MORGAN, MCCOY TYNER, THE LIST IS AMAZING. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT PHILLY AT THAT TIME THAT MADE IT SUCH FERTILE GROUND FOR JAZZ MUSICIANS?\
You look at it historically. It’s funny, when you get older you look at things differently, because you take the time to do so.
Your virility as a younger person makes you run around and you’re kind of more obsessed with yourself and the things that you are doing.
But I’ve noticed that between Art Blakey’s Jazz groups of the Jazz Messengers and Miles Davis’ groups during those impactful times, there were a lot Philadelphia musicians that were incorporated into their bands. I had never before paid attention to that, at least not in that way before.
I listened to the music all of the time as a younger person, singing and learning the solos of my favorite tunes, but I never really to the dynamic that was happening at the time but now that I teach more I have to be more objective as to that perspective. So, I’m not really sure I understand why many really extraordinary musicians on so many truly important historical records came from there.
*********
“It’s funny, when you get older you look at things differently, because you take the time to do so”
*********
YOU ALSO HAD THE PHILADELPHIA “SOUL” SOUND BACK IN THE 70S AS WELL
Yes!
Philadelphia music is interesting to me in that way. The person that I claim to my discovery would be Marlin Jordan, the trumpet player from New Orleans.
I was fascinated by what they present culturally and how it relates to music, and the broad variety of musical styles that the musicians there have to embrace.
I started asking myself if there were any other cities that were at least close to being that diverse, and I think that Philadelphia is certainly one of them. Probably Detroit as well.
You’re talking about all the way from avant garde music all the way to being impactful in the jazz world as well.
*******
“At this particular point, just being alive and playing music and being a part of that lineage is as inspiring as much as it is daunting”
*********
YOU’RE BEST KNOWN AS A TENOR SAX PLAYER. DO YOU EVER FEEL THAT “IT’S ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE”, WITH SUCH A LINEAGE OF SAX PLAYERS BEHIND YOU? HOW DO YOU KEEP FROM BEING INTIMIDATED BY THAT LEGACY OF HAWKINS, YOUNG, ROLLINS, GETZ, COLTRNE AND BEYOND?
At this particular point, just being alive and playing music and being a part of that lineage is as inspiring as much as it is daunting (laughs)
People always say “Don’t take yourself too seriously”, but I’m one of those people that takes that advice maybe two days out of the week, and the other days it’s the opposite for me (chuckles)
Here’s what helped me to understand, and its something that I explain to my students.
This is the test for what I like, and its level of significance is somewhat subjective, but it’s something that I’ve figured out and compartmentalized to make it work for me:
Historically, every single jazz musician has the responsibility of just creating their own voice. That’s actually the first step, and everything follows that.
We’re supposed to have a singular voice that is instantly identifiable; this is really important in these days with the amount of really great musicians out there.
But, one of the things that I realized that made this easier for the students is that we already have our own voice as people. We already have that, so what we need to do is to just figure out what we like from the musicians.
We need to listen more objectively, figure out who we like, understand that some of it will stay, some of it will go. But we also need to incorporate things that we feel inside of our bodies as well as the vibrations that we like to hear. He have to be more objective in our listening so that we learn more in detail.
The more detail that we have, the more profound the artist. That’s the difference between becoming a musician and a musician who has also raised what he’s learned to the level to be able to make it what we call “art’.
*******
“Historically, every single jazz musician has the responsibility of just creating their own voice. That’s actually the first step, and everything follows that”
********
IS THERE ANYTHING YOU NOTICE IN TODAY’S STUDENTS THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM PREVIOUS GENERATIONS, INCLUDING YOUR OWN?
I’m going to sound like a parody of articles that I’ve read from master musicians when Wynton Marsalis was coming up.
This doesn’t pertain to Wynton as much as the question…
There is greater proficiency today.
It was either Donald Byrd or Freddie Hubbard who said that every generation seems to have a higher level of proficiency, but as that proficiency increases, the idea of being closer to the essence of jazz seems to slightly dissipate.
One increases as the other decreases. Just minutely. That’s just one thing that I’ve also noticed, generally speaking and no disrespect to the younger generation, because I love them. I love hanging out with them; they’re inspiring to me.
But some of the important traditions that I was taught by the masters I don’t see being applied as much to the music.
*******
“We’re supposed to have a singular voice that is instantly identifiable; this is really important in these days with the amount of really great musicians out there”
********
GIVE AN EXAMPLE
Like, the incorporation of the blues.
Even the form, unless it’s played very fast.
There are no “adult tempos”, which are of dire importance.
You think about “adult tempos” on things like slow blues, or ballads, which are also “adult tempos”. You don’t hear that as much on current records.
I think that those are the big differences that I hear.
You get a bit more of a narrow perspective based on the idea that proficiency is being the higher value system of that generation.
********
The more detail that we have, the more profound the artist. That’s the difference between becoming a musician and a musician who has also raised what he’s learned to the level to be able to make it what we call “art’.
*********
I SOMETIMES NOTICE A LACK OF EMOTIONAL RANGE
I can see that, but its something I’d want to quantify.
I know what I feel based on what I’ve listened to.
I grew up listening to everything from The Carpenters to Kenny Rogers to Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. I was listening to music I probably shouldn’t have been listening to. (laughs)
I was listening to music of my generation, and I was listening to music that was really not part of my generation. I’m not sure that it is necessarily the same case now, based on the information that I’ve been given from my students.
Their listening process is much different then ours
*******
“It was either Donald Byrd or Freddie Hubbard who said that every generation seems to have a higher level of proficiency, but as that proficiency increases, the idea of being closer to the essence of jazz seems to slightly dissipate”
*********
ONE THING I ALSO NOTICE IS THAT VERY FEW YOUNGER PEOPLE JUST SIT DOWN AND TAKE IN AN ALBUM; THEY USUALLY PUT IT ON FOR JUST BACKGROUND MUSIC IN ORDER TO “CHILL”.
I try to explain to them the process of listening to music. I wish I had Youtube growing up.
First of all, when I was growing up we had to be connected or in touch with some publication that would let us know when a new record was coming out. Not every label had the money to pay for advertising.
To find a record that you wanted to purchase, you had to seek it out; you had to go to a store. Nine times out of then when you’d go to the store where they said it was, it wasn’t there. So you’d then have to order it, go home and then go back there again to get it when it was available! You invested a lot of time just to get this one recording.
Every aspect that was given to you in terms of its presentation, you’re looking at the photograph on the cover, you’re reading the liner notes; it makes you look at the music in a different way.
LET ME GIVE A TOUGH QUESTION ABOUT JAZZ AND JAZZ EDUCATION. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE ONLY WAY A JAZZ MUSICIAN CAN “MAKE IT” FINANCIALLY IS TO TEACH STUDENTS THAT THEY CAN “MAKE IT”. THEREFORE, IS JAZZ EDUCATION A TYPE OF“ PONZI SCHEME” WHERE THE ONLY MUSICIANS WHO MAKE A LIVING DO SO BY ENCOURAGING OTHERS HOW TO MAKE A LIVING OUT OF IT?
I don’t know if that is necessarily true in its entirety.
I think that if you were having a conversation with musicians in New Orleans, for example, we’d be singing a different song and dance. I know plenty of musicians in New Orleans who are making a good living. It qualifies in other areas.
I think that depends upon if you’re able to see yourself in 10-15 years out in terms of what your goals and objectives are.
If you’re a single person with no children, it is a much more manageable endeavor.
Obviously, the pandemic changed a lot of the dynamics, and I don’t think that the occupation mattered. I saw the same dynamic change with 9/11 as well, though nowhere near as impactful.
I remember at one point in my life, walking around the streets wondering “What am I going to do?” because there was no place to play, as no one knew anything about the disease; everyone was just laying low saving their money.
I think that if you decide that you want a huge house, a swimming pool, a wife and five kids, that requires more money, then your skill set, and how you diversify is really important these days, no matter who you are.
I could speak about really REALLY phenomenal artists that we all know (which I won’t name), that they have diversified so much that if you had asked them 10-20 years ago if they would’ve like to do these other things, they would have looked at you and asked “Why?”.
But now, the idea of diversifying into things like being an Artistic Director, or musicians that are radio personalities, doing all of these things. It’s the nature of the beast, nothing stays the same.
********
“I could speak about really REALLY phenomenal artists that we all know (which I won’t name), that they have diversified so much that if you had asked them 10-20 years ago if they would’ve like to do these other things, they would have looked at you and asked “Why?”.
*********
IN YOUR OWN CAREER, WHAT GIG OR RECORDING WAS A “BAPTISM BY FIRE”?
All of them! (laughs)
YOU’VE PLAYED WITH SOME INTENSE KEYBOARDISTS IN SHIRLEY SCOTT, JIMMY SMITH THE DEFRANCESCOS. DID ANY OF THEM INTIMIDATE YOU?
They were all at times extraordinarily challenging.
Some of the music by Nicholas Payton was very difficult.
It was like a boxing match, where all you can do is throw up your arms to protect yourself!
Playing with Shirley Scott is just a different level of maturity. It was like playing real “grown up” music.
It was really translating emotion, when you have to follow her solos and follow her essence, just being a part of that essence collectively is really challenging.
A musician that I tell my students about all of the time, one’s who name we should be hearing more, especially at a time when we should be supporting women in jazz more, is Michelle Rosewoman.
Michelle Rosewoman’s music is some of the most difficult music I’ve ever played. She was extraordinarily gracious with me when I played with her.
One time, on a break, I pulled her aside and said , “Listen, let’s just have a talk (laughs)
I’m trying my best here, and it’s not just working out. I understand”
There was music that I could play, but this was just extraordinarily difficult. She’s just brilliant.
“Oh, no” she said. “You sound great. I’m just going through everything to see what works and what doesn’t work”. It ended up being a great gig, because she was so brilliant, as well as a wonderful person. I think about her often.
I never recorded with her, as I was substituting, but it’s a gig I have never forgotten.
It was truly a baptism by fire as the music was so different than that I was used to; it was very forward thinking. I’m really glad that I had the opportunity to do it; I still have some of her charts! (laughs)
*******
“Playing with Shirley Scott is just a different level of maturity. It was like playing real “grown up” music.t was like a boxing match, where all you can do is throw up your arms to protect yourself!”
********
HAS ANYONE GIVEN YOU SPECIAL CAREER OR LIFE ADVICE?
My father. He’s a very objective thinker
There really hasn’t been anything that’s happened in the music industry that my father hasn’t told me about in the beginning of my career, including diversification. Networking, investments, just sitting down and thinking about your music career as a business, which means that you have to think about yourself as a business. He’s given me a lot of information that I’ve brought into my music business class.
I hope they’ll learn it earlier than I did! (chuckles) I didn’t listen well at first!
WHAT ELSE DO YOU EMPHASIZE TO YOUR STUDENTS BESIDES THE IMPORTANCE OF NETWORKING? VERY FEW PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF MAKING A LIVING IN SCHOOLS.
I think that the most important thing is have some sort of plan, and to think about yourself as a business.
You are your brand.
You’re out of high school, and you’re going to college, and all of a sudden it’s “OK! You’ve crossed over the line; now you have to a deal with this and enter a whole new realm of seriousness” Immediately! And it can be a bit much, depending upon your level of maturity
So I have an exercise that if you can’t figure it out for yourself because you haven’t thought about this at all, then let’s just talk about artists that they admire, and I make the students describe them. What are the dynamic qualities of this artist that are admirable?
Then we highlight certain qualities which they think are really important and make them into a list. That gets them started.
********
“I think that the most important thing is have some sort of plan, and to think about yourself as a business”
*********
LET’S GO INTO SOME OF YOUR MORE OBSCURE RECORDINGS. WHAT DID YOU DO WITH ISAAC HAYES?
That was a crazy and fun gig. I performed with Christian McBride at Jazz at The Bistro in Saint Louis. Cyrus Chestnut was also on that gig.
I wasn’t a part of it at the beginning, but by the time it was all over I got a call to come over, and the next thing I know I’m playing with Isaac Hayes, who is singing music from The Great American Songbook, like “When I Fall In Love”.
It was fun, but scary, as I’d never before played with someone with that big of a name or level of popularity. It was also fun watching the dynamic of the “older” ladies (not out of disrespect; I was just much younger) swooning as this man sings the standards. (chuckles)
HAVING PLAYED MOST FAMOUSLY WITH FOUR DIFFERENT B3ERS IN SHIRLY SCOTT, JIMMY SMITH AND PAPA JOE OR JOEY DEFRANCESCO, DO THEIR DIFFERENT TOUCHES AFFECT THE WAY THAT YOU PLAY?
It really does. Each one has created their own essences to their aesthetic that is very singular.
But, there’s also a tradition that is followed, a lineage, so there are a lot of commonalities. So there are certain things which you can do, and there is a certain way that you know you should play that they are expecting if they’ve called you. They want you to do what you do.
Some talked more; Jimmy Smith didn’t talk much at all.
We were given music; he called the tune and that would be about it.
I had a very close relationship with Shirly Scott. Both (trumpeter) Terell Stafford and I considered her like an aunt, a mother, a good friend, a mentor. That was a completely different type of experience.
She knew details about my life and was interested in them personally.
Trudy Pitts was similar; she was in the same space. But I had a more intense tenure with Shirley than Trudy
Papa Joe DeFrancesco was like family. Joey was also like family, because we grew up in the scene, although he was younger than I ,
They were all different, but when it came to being on the bandstand, there were certain requirements. Play with soul; understand what the tradition is; have your own voice, and know how the leaders operate.
For instance, Shirley gave me a lot of playing time, while I’d be a bit more conservative with Jimmy.
********
“You’re out of high school, and you’re going to college, and all of a sudden it’s “OK! You’ve crossed over the line; now you have to a deal with this and enter a whole new realm of seriousness” Immediately! And it can be a bit much, depending upon your level of maturity”
**********
WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR WHEN YOU HEAR A TENOR SAX PLAYER, AND DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE?
Many years ago, I had pet peeves; now, my thing is “Do you…?” (laughs)
****It’s really hard to say, just listening in the moment. The test of time really tells all of our stories, sustenance, and the delivery of something that is artistically impactful.
I listen for art.
That really diminishes some of the value systems that we try to put on music collectively
***Look, proficiency is great, but there are people who are less proficient but are very artful musicians.
***I would rather listen to them, than to hear somebody play all night but in a way that obviously is not acknowledging the fact that they have listened to everyone else.
*******
“Play with soul; understand what the tradition is; have your own voice, and know how the leaders operate”
**********
IS THERE A MUSICIAN LIVING OR DEAD YOU’D PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
That’s a hard one.
John Coltrane. I would take any period.
Of course, I love the Impulse! years, but I’d love to hear him with Miles Davis.
IS THERE ANYONE IN WORLD HISTORY, LIVING OR DEAD, YOU’D LIKE TO SIT DOWN FOR AN EVENING AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
That is very difficult; the crème de la crème.
We’ve been talking about business, so one would be Warren Buffett.
IT SOUNDS LIKE IF YOU DIDN’T BECOME A MUSICIAN, YOU MIGHT HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK WITH MILTON FRIEDMAN OR THOMAS SOWELL.
Actually, people have told me that I could be a fashion consultant.
Since my early teens, I’ve been interested in that.
But I really like to cook. I love to cook for people.
I’ve made everything from catfish nuggets to bouillabaisse soup
******
Look, proficiency is great, but there are people who are less proficient but are very artful musicians
*******
IS THERE A PHILOSOPHY, BOOK, TEACHING OR RELIGION THAT HAS INSPIRED YOU OR SHAPED YOUR WOLDVIEW?
I don’t know if there’s any philosophy that has shaped my worldview.
But what I can say is that there has certainly been some philosophies that have confirmed a lot of my beliefs.
There is a poem by Max Ermann called “Desiderata”. When I first read it, I said “Yes!”
If I had put into words what I believe, this would be it.
*******
“There is a poem by Max Ermann called “Desiderata”. When I first read it, I said ‘Yes!’”
********
ARE THERE ANY BOOKS YOU’VE READ THAT YOU WISH OTHERS WOULD READ?
Howard Zinn’s History of The American People
WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
To be a better musician.
Even more importantly, to be a better person. To work much harder on forward thinking.
I believe that we’re about to be in an immense change in how music is shared throughout the world.
A lot of our ideas and approaches are about to be obsolete
******
“I believe that we’re about to be in an immense change in how music is shared throughout the world”
*******
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
I’ve had the opportunity to be introduced to some new technology, and it created such a spark for me, but it made me realize that there may be an increased duality required in knowledge for musicians to move forward. I believe that the graphic arts may become real important. I could be wrong, but it created a lot of juices for me.
HOW DO YOU MAKE YOURSELF A BETTER PERSON?
Be fearless. Be undaunted about trying new things Talk less, and listen more.
WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Watching people that I love live.
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I just want them to put me in the box and get rid of me! (laughs)
Say what you need to say to me now!
********
“Be fearless. Be undaunted about trying new things Talk less, and listen more”
*********
THE TITLE OF THIS INTERVIEW IS TAKEN FROM ONE OF TIM WARFIELD’S ALBUM TITLES, BUT IT SERVES WELL THE IDEA OF WHAT IT MEANS TO MAKE A LIVING AS A MUSICIAN. AS MR. WARFIELD HAS POINTED OUT, JAZZ IS A LAND IN WHICH PEOPLE LIVE. HOW ARE WE AS IT’S CITIZENS?