Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their labor:
If either of them falls down,
one can help the other up.
But pity anyone who falls
and has no one to help them up.
Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?
Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken
Book of Ecclesiastes 4:9-2
ONE OF THE FIRST JAZZ ALBUMS I EVER GOT WAS ENTITLED PIONEERS OF THE JAZZ GUITAR. IT FEATURED DUETS FROM THE 30S BETWEEN ARTISTS LIKE LONNIE JOHNSON AND EDDIE LANG, CARL KRESS AND DICK MCDONOUGTH AND LANG AND KRESS. THE WONDROUSLY LYRICAL AND INTIMATE CONVESATIONS OPENED UP A WHOLE NEW WORLD OF STYLE AND SOUNDS, FROM WHICH I HAVE NEVER RECOVERED.
THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW ‘GUITAR SUMMIT’ ALBUMS SINCE THEN, AND THERE IS JUST SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT THEM THAN WHEN WITH OTHER ARTISTS. LET’S BE HONEST; HOW MANY TWO TROMBONE OR VIBES ALBUM DO YOU REALLY WANT TO LISTEN TO OVER AND OVER AGAIN?
SO WHAT A SURPRISE IT WAS AT MY 50 YEAR JR. HIGH REUNION, THAT I LEARNED ABOUT AN OLD CLASSMATE OF MINE, PAUL BROWN, HAD BECOME A JAZZ GUITARIST. I REMEMBERED HIM PLAYING DRUMS BACK IN THE DAY, SO I WAS EVEN MORE FASCINATED TO LEARN THAT HE RECENTLY RECORDED AN ALBUM WITH GUITAR GREAT LARRY CARLTON, ENTITLED SOUL SEARCHIN’ (SHANACHIE RECORDS).
WHAT BETTER EXCUSE TO RE-UNITE WITH A SCHOOLMATE AFTER HALF A CENTURY?
EVEN BETTER WAS THAT LARRY CARLTON WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO JOIN IN THE CONVERSATION.
BOTH GENTS WERE AS ARTICULATE AND GRACIOUS AS THEIR PLAYING. THE QUESTIONS HAVE EACH ARTIST’S NAME BEFORE THEIR QUESTION.
PAUL-I REMEMBER IN JR. HIGH YOU WERE A DRUMMER. WHEN DID YOU SWITCH FROM DRUMS TO GUITAR?
Paul: I was playing drums professionally until I was about 20. It was during that time from being 5-15 years old I was taking drum lessons from my uncle Al Goodman, who was a pretty famous drummer. But, I also played guitar all along the way, taking lessons from Tommy Tedesco, Ted Greene and Jimmy Wyble. Some really amazing guitar players.
I was always playing the guitar and writing songs for the bands that I was playing drums in.
I was actually on the road with the blues guy Long John Baldry, playing drums. He took my entire band out of high school. We were playing at The Troubadour in LA. He was there and came back stage and said, “My band got stuck in England with their passports, and they can’t do this tour that is starting in three days. Would your whole band want to come along and play?”
So my whole band went, and we ended up touring with Baldry for a couple of years. At the end of the last tour we were meant to go into a recording studio in Florida (we were in Canada at the time). But on the last day of the tour, the album producer, Jimmy Horowitz, came over from England with a drummer, and he liked this guy, wanting to use him.
My whole band went to Florida to record the album, except for me; I went to LA. It was at that point that I quit playing drums. From then on, I wanted to be the guy who makes that decision. It kind of forced me into becoming a producer and engineer. It was a real weird situation, but it was a crossroads in my career.
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“I remember thinking back then “Technically, (Larry Carlton) is amazing” but now I realize it was more of a musical thing. The harmonics and intervals that he was playing was so interesting and different.
Paul Brown
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PAUL-WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST EXPOSURE TO LARRY CARLTON?
Paul-At the Baked Potato; Larry used to play there on Tuesday nights, either with Lee Ritenour or Robben Ford, Jeff Porcaro, Harvey Mason and Don Grusin. All these cats.
We used to go every Tuesday and just be amazed. Larry was a super big influence on my musical journey. Everyone still talks about those days, even today I meet people who say, “Oh, yeah, I used to see Larry there”. And now his son is there with Groove Legacy.
LARRY-WHEN DID YOU FIRST HEAR OR MEET PAUL?
Larry-I was just recently able to share this story with Paul:
When I joined Fourplay around 1997, they were on Warner Brothers for my first album with them. They had an A&R man, Nat Pearson, who said, “Well, you’re with the guys now on Warner Brothers, so we should sign you also as a solo artist.
I signed, and some time later I went to do my first album for them. I was in the studio, and my procedure for making my own records was to pick the tunes that I like, call the players that I like, get the engineer and go in and make the music.
I was in the studio the second day, and I hadn’t checked in with Pearson; I just went in and started my album. He called the studio, and we talked for a minute, and he said “What are you doing”?
I said “I’m making a record.”
He said, “I want to fly in and know what you’re doing.” Which was fine.
He said, “Larry, I like everything that you’re doing, but would you consider working with Paul Brown as a producer for the last for sides of the album? I think he can guarantee us some airplay.” I said, “Of course.”
That’s how I hooked up with Paul. We had never met. I flew to LA, we did four tracks in one night for the Fingerprints album , and they were very successful.
That’s how we met, and it was such a comfortable feeling working with him.
LARRY-YOU ONCE SAID IN AN EARLIER INTERVIEW WITH ME THAT YOU DON’T MIND HEARING YOUR QUOTES IN OTHER GUITARISTS, BUT YOU DON’T LIKE IMITIATIONS. WHAT IMPRESSED YOU ABOUT PAUL’S PLAYING, AND DID YOU HEAR A BIT OF YOURSELF IN HIS PLAYING?
LARRY: I heard Paul committed to the jazz box, with very little bending of strings, which is my area of passion. That’s my style.
Paul sounded like a very contemporary version of Wes. That’s cool, but he had it with a sensibility towards contemporary music. That’s what I heard in Paul; very tasty, but coming not from my school.
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“Paul sounded like a very contemporary version of Wes”
Larry Carlton
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PAUL-HARRY JAMES USED TO SAY THAT ORIGINALLY BEING A DRUMMER HELPED HIM AS A TRUMPETER. HOW DID DRUMMING CREATE YOUR GUITAR STYLE?
Paul: Any musician will benefit from playing another instrument, but especially with drums, coming from that bare necessity of rhythm, with so much of what we play being rhythm oriented. It’s like my dad would say, “Playing a bad note at the correct time is much better than is much better than playing the right note at the wrong time”
You listen to Jeff Porcaro play the drums, it sounds like one person is playing the snare, one is playing the kick, where his space between the beats is just perfect. That space between notes becomes just as important as the notes themselves. The phrasing of the rhythm and where it is placed is very important. Drumming really helped that.
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“Any musician will benefit from playing another instrument, but especially with drums, coming from that bare necessity of rhythm”
Paul Brown
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BOTH OF YOU GUYS GREW UP IN THE 1970s,
DURING THE “GUITAR AGE” WHEN SPEED AND “CHOPS” WERE THE BIG THING-WHO IS FASTER, ETC. DID EITHER OF YOU MAKE A CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO GET INTO THAT DISCUSSION, OR DID YOU AT ONE TIME TRY IT AND REALIZE THAT IT DIDN’T FIT YOUR MUSICAL GOALS?
Larry: In the 70s, during the fusion era, my style kind of happened. Even though I was hearing all of these guys with great, great chops, the music didn’t touch my heart, so I was never tempted to say “I’ve got to have twice as many chops as I do now, because that’s exciting”. It was a matter of heart taste, it didn’t touch me.
Paul: It’s funny, because if you think about listening to Larry’s solos on Steely Dan or whatever, I remember thinking back then “Technically, this is amazing” but now I realize it was more of a musical thing. The harmonics and intervals that he was playing was so interesting and different. It didn’t come down to his speed.
I don’t think many people are moved by a technical thing as much as they are by an emotional r soulful thing. Larry and I both come from the same cloth when it comes to that.
Eddie Van Halen was able to coordinate super chops and taste in a really nice way, but a lot of the guys who played fusion so aggressively made it so I didn’t enjoy listening to it. I need space between the notes.
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“Playing a bad note at the correct time is much better than is much better than playing the right note at the wrong time”
Paul Brown
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PAUL-WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED PLAYING WITH LARRY, WERE YOU EITHER NERVOUS, ENCOURAGED OR INTIMIDATED?
All of the above.
I’ve worked with George Benson, Al Jarreau, Boney James and all of these amazing musicians, but I’ve never shared the stage with them.
So, when I had the chance to do it in Florida for the first time with Larry about ten years ago, I was really excited. I called Dave Koz right before I went on and told him “ I’m about to go on stage with Larry Carlton, and I’m really nervous”. Dave just said, “This is what you should be doing; you deserve to do it. Go have fun”. And I did; it was a blast.
LARRY-WAS THERE ANYTHING YOU WANTED TO CONVEY TO PAUL OR ENCOURAGE HIM ABOUT DURING THESE MEETINGS?
Larry: No, not consciously.
My acquaintance with Paul at that time made me feel that he didn’t need any encouragement. He played great guitar, and was successful, so I didn’t have those kind of thoughts.
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“That space between notes becomes just as important as the notes themselves”
Paul Brown
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THE ALBUM SOUNDS LIKE A PERFECT MIX OF THE CRUSADERS AND VINTAGE STEELY DAN. WHO’S DECISION WAS IT TO HAVE SHANE THERIOT CONTRIBUTE MOST OF THE SONGS AS WELL AS DO MUCH ARRANGING AND KEYBOARD WORK?
Larry: Paul did it!
Paul: It turns out coincidentally that with Shane in Japan playing guitar with either Hall and Oats or the Neville Brothers, and Larry was in sudden need of a bass player. Shane was over there and he played bass with Larry for about a week. That’s how they met.
Shane coincidentally moved into my guest house about a year and a half ago, so we’ve been writing songs together for everyone we’ve worked with since then.
When this project came up, he mentioned that he’d played with Larry, so we decided to do songs with a Crusaders vibe, a “Larry-bluesy” vibe, etc. Writing for two guitars is a little bit different. Shane’s an amazing writer; he did a great job putting these tracks together. He’s all over it.
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“Even though I was hearing all of these guys with great, great chops, the music didn’t touch my heart, so I was never tempted to say “I’ve got to have twice as many chops as I do now, because that’s exciting”. It was a matter of heart taste, it didn’t touch me”
Larry Carlton
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LARRY-YOU USUALLY PLAY YOUR OWN COMPOSITIONS, SO HOW WAS IT FITTING INTO SHANE’S MUSICAL WORLD?
Larry: Their sensitivity to both Paul’s style and my style, and then crafting songs that could make each of us feel comfortable in our own thing made it really work. It was not an effort on my part. The tracks were custom for Paul and me.
Paul: We left big spaces for Larry to be as creative as he wanted to be. There was a lot of room for Larry to participate in for the songs, and when we sent him the songs, we got it back and heard his guitar, we said, “Oh, my God”. It’s one thing to write the music, but then to hear Larry playing it and making it his own is really exciting.
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“I don’t think many people are moved by a technical thing as much as they are by an emotional r soulful thing”
Paul Brown
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TWO GUITAR SUMMITS HAVE BEEN PART OF JAZZ SINCE THE EARLY DAYS OF LONNIE JOHNSON WITH EDDIE LANG. WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES AND JOYS OF TWO GUITAR ALBUMS?
Larry: The joy was having to do it with Paul and having the music so well crafted. It was effortless for me to get involved in the tunes.
It was different because we weren’t in the same room playing together. But, with our years of studio experience, it wasn’t a problem not being together. It would have been interesting to be in the studio together and play off of each other, but it was still no effort. These guys did their homework and made it right up my alley.
Paul: Because of COVID, we couldn’t get together, but it also created the time element for us to be able to do it. If not for COVID, we probably could not have done this recording, because we’d both have been off doing different things.
HAVE YOU TRIED DOING ANY GIGS TOGETHER YET?
Paul: Not yet, but we’ve got a couple in the works in April, hopefully getting a lot more going on.
DO EITHER OF YOU HAVE A TWO GUITAR ALBUM THAT IS YOUR TEMPLATE FOR HOW THEY SHOULD SOUND TOGETHER?
Paul: Just did it! (laughs) Who else would I want to play with?
Larry: I was just flashing back, and no album comes to my mind. I can’t even remember owning a two guitar album.
Paul: The George Benson/Earl Klugh album comes to mind, but that’s about it.
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“It’s one thing to write the music, but then to hear Larry playing it and making it his own is really exciting”
Paul Brown
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LARRY-I SAW YOU JUST BEFORE THE COVID CLOSURE AT THE BAKED POTATO. I TOLD YOU THAT I WAS COVERING THE GIG, AND YOU SAID “PLEASE DON’T! I HAVEN’T TOUCHED MY GUITAR IN 3 MONTHS”. BUT YOU WERE FANTASTIC THAT NIGHT. WERE YOU RUNNING ON MUSCLE MEMORY? HOW DO YOU GO FROM FISHING FOR 3 MONTHS TO TEARING UP THE BAKED POTATO?
Larry: After all of these years, there’s a lot of music stored up in me, even if I don’t play for three months.
But, I’m the first to confess that my technique goes down. It has to, even if the muscle memory is there.
So, at the Baked Potato my technique was definitely not what it would have been had I been touring and making records where your chops are always on the guitar. That’s why I made that statement.
Maybe nobody else knows, but I know when I’m not nailing the stuff that I could if I were playing all of the time.
Paul: Three months is a long time without playing. I go out of my mind when I’m on vacation and I don’t bring a guitar. If I don’t play for over a week, I go “Oh, my God!”
Larry: I understand. It was just life at that time. Soon, I’ll be making it up for the last 12 gigs that were cancelled last year because of COVID. I’m coming down to my little studio and playing for at least an hour because I’ve got these 12 gigs, and some of them are 2 shows a night, four nights in a row. I’ll have a great band; I’m trying to do a little bit at a time so by the third night I don’t get up there and go, “my fingers are SORE!” (laughs)
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“I do a lot of reflection now on the blessings that I’ve had as a musician. Most of them were unplanned; opportunities just came and the world kind of reacted in a positive way to what I was playing”
Larry Carlton
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LARRY-YOU HAVE A SONG ON THE ALBUM CALLED “GONE FISHIN’”. ARE YOU A FLY OR REEL FISHERMAN?
Larry: I just to tackle and spinning reel.
LARRY-IS THERE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FISHING AND PLAYING GUITAR?
Larry: The fishing is so freeing for the mind. You’re focused on what you’re doing, and you’re outside. It’s just a different mind set for peace. If you’re into that, which I am, it’s a peaceful time in my life where I’m just fishing and not thinking about anything business-wise or like that. It’s a calming and beautiful time to not be thinking about music.
PAUL-WHAT DO YOU DO TO REFRESH YOURSELF?
Paul: I play golf. I agree with Larry; fishing and golf are pretty much the same in that it puts you into a survival mode into focusing on what you’re doing at that very moment. When you’re in the middle of a golf shot, you really can’t think about anything else, so it frees your mind.
It’s amazing to me how many ideas I get musically when I’m golfing. Like fishing, it frees up your mind. Typically you’re outside, with other people, there’s a comradery. It’s great!
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“It’s amazing to me how many ideas I get musically when I’m golfing. Like fishing, it frees up your mind”
Paul Brown
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EACH OF YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A FEW BOOKS THAT HAVE INFLUENCED YOU AND THAT YOU WISH OTHERS WOULD READ
Paul-I got into the metaphysical stuff about 20 years ago, and started reading a lot of that. I liked The Dancing Wu Li Masters, but I was a math major in school, so it may not interest a lot of people. I don’t like reading books unless I can learn something from them; I don’t like reading drama, story books or that sort of thing.
Ted Green’s book Chord Chemistry was pretty amazing also. I loved reading Kurt Vonnegut books, and I read a lot of Hess, like Siddhartha.
Larry-I wish I had some to recommend, but I’m not a reader. Nothing has come to mind , although there probably were a couple of books in my earlier years, but they aren’t coming to mind right now.
CAN EACH OF YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT HISTORICAL FIGURE, LIVING OR DEAD, THAT YOU’D LIKE TO SPEND AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Larry-Interesting question. I would be too intimidated to do so, but it would be John Coltrane. If I could relax enough, and it was the right environment I’d just love to sit and ask a few questions, but more to just be in the presence of the man.
In the same vein, if there was something from the past I’d like to play a song with, it would be McCoy Tyner. Again, I would be so intimidated that I’m not sure I could make great music with him at the time. It would be a thrill just to play a blues with McCoy Tyner, just because he and Coltrane had such an impact on my listening and my heart when I was in my formative years.
Paul-I would probably say my dad. That would be nice.
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“It would (have been) a thrill just to play a blues with McCoy Tyner, just because he and Coltrane had such an impact on my listening and my heart when I was in my formative years”
Larry Carlton
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WHAT MUSICIAN WOULD EITHER OF YOU PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
Paul-I’d love to have seen Wes Montgomery up close and personal. ****I asked George Benson if he’d ever had the chance to play with Wes, and he said, “No, man; NOBODY plays with Wes! He was a bad dude. You can’t get on stage with him.”
I asked him what kind of a guy he was; was he a rich man, or one that the record companies took advantage of. Benson said “The only thing Wes ever wanted was a new Cadillac and elevator shoes”
Larry-I’d go again with Coltrane as I never saw him play live. I’ve seen videos. In my late teens I did go to Shelly’s Manne Hole in Hollywood to see Wes play, but it was at the time when he was having great success with A&M with the commercial stuff. He didn’t really seem to be on it or enthused about it. He was just playing the hits.
Paul-I have a lot of dreams where I’m playing with The Grateful Dead, as I’ve always wanted to work with them on any level, engineering, whatever, but I never got a chance to while Jerry Garcia was alive. It would have been amazing to sit in with them.
LARRY, AT THIS STAGE IN YOUR CAREER, YOU ARE LIKE ALEXANDER THE GREAT, WITH NO NEW WORLDS TO CONQUER. HOW DO YOU MUSICALLY OR MENTALLY CHALLENGE YOURSELF?
I don’t (chuckles)
I’m 73, and I’ve been doing “big time work” since I was 22-23 years old.
I do a lot of reflection now on the blessings that I’ve had as a musician. Most of them were unplanned; opportunities just came and the world kind of reacted in a positive way to what I was playing.
So right now, I’m not looking or pushing for anything, but I’m available for anything that can kind of get that spark going in me to create some more music.
Paul-I’ve been doing this for a heck of a long time. The amount of songs that have come out from me is striking.
I was in Japan a couple of years ago with my son doing a gig at the Cotton Club, and some fan had come backstage to get a signature from me on a cd. While we were waiting, he had filled two tables with cds that I had produced that he wanted me to sign. I have produced over 200 albums, and he had about 100 of them. They were all laying on the table, and my son just said, “ Dad, this is CRAZY!”
When you start to think about it, it’s kind of overwhelming. But the bottom line is that I still enjoy it, and I’m still trying to do the best that I can.
One thing that does challenge me now is that every time I do something I try to give 100%. That hasn’t changed. I hope to keep striving to get better and better and that drive will stay with me.
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“right now, I’m not looking or pushing for anything, but I’m available for anything that can kind of get that spark going in me to create some more music”
Larry Carlton
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WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
Paul-“I told you he was a nice guy” (laughs)
Larry-it would be an honor on my headstone to say “That was one tasty dude” (chuckles)
BOTH OF THESE ARTISTS HAVE A LOT OF SUCCESS TO REFLECT ON FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS. BUT AS WITH THE GREATEST OF ARTISTS, THEY USE THAT HISTORY NOT AS A REASON TO REST ON THEIR LAURELS, BUT AS A SPRINGBOARD FOR NEW IDEAS. ISN’T THAT THE ALLURE OF JAZZ, ANYWAY?