MOST MUSICIANS MAKE ALBUMS ABOUT MUSIC. DRUMMER MATT WILSON MAKES ALBUMS ABOUT LIFE.
EVEN A CURSORY PERUSAL OF WILSON’S CATALOGUE AS A LEADER GIVES EVIDENCE THAT HE LET’S HIS ALBUMS REFLECT A STAGE OF HIS LIFE, WHICH FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS WAS DOMINATED BY HIS WIFE FELICIA’S BATTLE AND SUCCUMBING TO LEUKEMIA IN 2014.
MOST OF HIS ALBUM TITLES ARE ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE, BE THEY FAMILY MEMBERS, FELLOW MUSICIANS OR INSPIRATIONS. AN ATTITUDE OF GRATITUDE, A FAMILY JAZZ PARTY, GUEST HOUSE AND MEETING OF THE SPIRITS ALL POINT TO THE IMPORTANCE OF THE TIES OF FAMILY AND FRIENDSHIP, HELD TOGETHER BY FAITH. THIS CLIMAXED IN HIS ALBUM BEGINNING OF A MEMORY WHICH WAS DEDICATED TO AND REFLECTIVE OF HIS LOVING WIFE, ALSO A MUSIC AND EDUCATOR.
YOU WOULD THINK THAT A MAN LIKE WILSON, DEALING WITH SUCH DEEP ISSUES, WOULD BECOME MOROSE OR SULLEN. BUT, AS MY MOM ALWAYS SAID, YOU ATTITUDE ABOUT DEATH REFLECTS YOUR ATTITUDE ON LIFE, AND WILSON HAS ALWAYS FACED LIFE WITH A SMILE AND OPTIMISTIC OUTLOOK.
THE SIDEMAN FOR THE LIKES OF DEWEY REDMAN, LEE KONITZ AND CHARLIE HADEN PUT TOGETHER AN INTRIGUING ALBUM (HONEY AND SALT) SPOTLIGHTING THE POETRY AND VISION OF CARL SANDBERG, WITH READINGS AND SUPPORT BY THE LIKES OF CHRISTIAN MCBRIDE, CARLA BLEY, JOHN SCOFIELD AND BILL FRISELL
HIS LATEST ALBUM HUG! IS AN ALMOST SPIKE JONES AFFAIR, MIXING POP SONGS LIKE ROGER MILLERS’ “KING OF THE ROAD” WITH ORIGINALS, POST-BOP COVERS AND EVEN SNIPPETS OF SPEECHES FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP. IT’S ALMOST VAUDEVILLIAN IN ITS JOYFUL MIX OF TALENT AND TONGUE IN CHEEK MESSAGES WITH HIS LONGTIME TEAM OF BASSIST CHRIS LIGHTCAP, REED MAN JEFF LEDERER AND CORNET PLAYER KIRK KNUFFKE.
MATT WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO SPEND SOME TIME SHARING HIS LIFE AND OUTLOOK WITH US, AND LIKE HIS MUSIC, IT WAS FILLED WITH CLASS, HUMOR AND SURPRISES.
IN YOUR EARLIER DAYS YOU PLAYED WITH FRED HERSCH. WHAT DID YOU GLEAN FROM HIM?
I learned a lot from Fred.
I remember a gig one night…I was younger and was in a period where I felt that I had to “leave a mark”, sort of like “Kilroy Was Here”.
I was subbing in the trio, which I did during “The Coma Dreams”. We were playing in Englewood, New Jersey with Steve Luspida also subbing. He told me “I was playing with Joe Henderson, with Al Foster and Ron Carter, and sometimes I would just drop and not play. Just listen and then come back in.” It’s called “strolling”, giving the sax player a chance to play trio a lot without the chord support.
He said, “I did this on and off for awhile without thinking about it. One time we were hanging out after and I said ‘Hey Joe, when I drop out and come back in, is that cool?’. He said, ‘Fred, if it feels right, it’s probably right; If you think it’s right, it’s probably not right.”
He’s a great friend, but I was still intimidated by Fred until a couple of years ago, but after he called me one time to play, I realized that I should be there.
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“(Joe Henderson) said, ‘Fred, if it feels right, it’s probably right; If you think it’s right, it’s probably not right.’”
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HOW ABOUT WHEN YOU PLAY WITH LEE KONITZ? DO YOU MENTALLY CHANGE MUSICAL GEARS WITH SOMEONE LIKE HIM?
Lee and I had a great relationship. We did a lot of recordings and gigs together.
It was hard to tell with Lee. Sometimes he wanted more and I would play stronger, and other nights I would hold back.
A great story with Lee is that he came here with the Christmas Trio and hated it. But then on his 91st birthday, he came to Dizzy’s with his son and he saw us play there “Honey and Salt”. He came back stage and I thought “Oh man. He’s going to come in and not like this.” But he loved it, because he likes stuff that is different.
One time Lee was back stage, right before his 75th birthday. We were playing Trio the week before with Gary Peacock and Bill Frisell. Elvis Costello was supposed to come. We were in Northampton, Massachusetts in this dingy and dirty dressing room. He said, “You know what I want to do in my remaining years? I just want to keep doing what I do, and do it better. “
He basically did that for his whole career. He just did it better and surrounded himself with all kinds of guys.
When he passed, Bill Frisell and I were talking, and we think that there’s nobody in the history of jazz music, or even American music that had played with the widest group of people than he did. From Birth of the Cool to Lennie Tristano to Bird all kinds of European people of all generations. He had great relationships with guys much younger than I. Dan Tefner, Florian Weber…he was a constant explorer. I got that from him.
And without having to re-invent the wheel. He still played “All The Things You Are” but surrounded himself with great and different people.
For all of us, he was the closest link we had to the history of the music; smoking a joint with Louis Armstrong (laughs)
I was lucky to play with people like Dewey Redman, Cecil McBee , Buster Williams , Denny Zeitlin, Lee and all of these people. They all let me be me. I was inspired by the ways in which they found their own way
There’s a story by Charlie Parker touring with Lee Konitz in Stan Kenton’s orchestra, even though his wife was going to have one of his children. One morning on the road in a hotel he got a knock on the door, early in the morning, and it was Charlie Parker, who said “You need a friend today”. So they just walked around and talked, had breakfast and lunch all the way through the afternoon. Lee said “I can’t recall anything that we talked about, but I can still remember how great he made me feel.”
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“For all of us, (Lee Konitz) was the closest link we had to the history of the music”
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DID YOU EVER COME TO A GIG WITH ANY OF THESE GUYS LIKE WILLIAMS, REDMAN OR MCBEE FEELING THAT YOU WERE IN OVER YOUR HEAD?
I felt challenged, but no, because they were all very encouraging . I’m grateful to have played with these great bass players, with all of their knowledge. Especially that bass thing from a drummer’s perspective.
I just got back from a vacation and visited Carla Bley and Steve Swallow I recorded with Steve Swallow the week before that. I was literally outside in the recording session with him, so we were “outside” and literally outside the recording studio. Jamie was inside one of the rooms and Steve was in the other and it started to rain.
I’ve done over 500 records and I’ve never had one delayed by rain before. (laughs)
Steve said during the break how much he enjoyed playing with me.
I love playing with these guys like Swallow, Mraz, Rufus Reed..that era of bass player and musicianship I have a real affinity for, because they came up through the tradition, but they were the pavers of the new way. I really appreciate that about them.
Even a player like John Clayton is like that. He’s been a strong mentor
John is a complete musician. People think he’s just a big band guy, but everyone wants to have those challenges
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‘”Sound and feel are neck and neck.’That’s what Dewey Redman used to say. Just an awareness of the details of the sound”
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WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING A DRUMMER, WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR?
Our medium is sound. I really go for their sound; how they offer the sound and what their sound is. Their sound is them.
The bottom line is that a lot of it is in the stroke. Sometimes you shut your eyes, as you can be deceived by what you see, and a lot of times I can tell by what I hear, even if it’s a recording, by imagining what it looked like. How they dance on the drums.
”Sound and feel are neck and neck.” That’s what Dewey Redman used to say. Just an awareness of the details of the sound.
The sound comes from the feel. We can list drummers all day, but you know them by their sound.
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“Sometimes you shut your eyes, as you can be deceived by what you see, and a lot of times I can tell by what I hear, even if it’s a recording, by imagining what it looked like. How they dance on the drums”
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MANY OF YOUR ALBUMS INVOLVE A MESSAGE OR RELATIONSHIP. THEY AREN’T JUST AN ABSTRACT COLLECTION OF TUNES. IS THUS DUE TO YOUR DEALING WITH YOUR WIFE’S ILLNESS AND DEATH, OR HAS THIS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF YOU? IN OTHER WORDS, ARE THESE ALBUMS A KIND OF CATHARSIS, OR JUST A REFLECTIO OF WHO YOU ARE?
That’s a great question.
Even from the get-go, my records have had themes. Going Once, Going Twice, Smile.
I care a lot about a record. I never “just” do a record. I don’t like the word “just” in anything. Like, “It’s just this” or “It’s just the blues” . Nothing to me is “just”. Nothing to me is “almost”.
Part of the reason that music is boring is because it’s presented in a boring way. I think I got a lot of this (Thanksgiving, Wake Up) from Felicia, my wife, as we talked about this stuff. Even Falling Away had a theme, but a lot of it came from the pop records that I grew up with. They had themes.
As well as some jazz records. Kind of Blue has a vibe. There’s a a Japanese record, Album Album , and that album is a total book, a total play. It’s a complete 7 course meal.
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“I really think a lot about how to put together a record. I want it to be an event, just like a concert.”
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I’ve never approached an album with a “let’s see what I can do” mentality. When I did all of these early things on my records, people thought, “he’s doing this to show that he can play in different styles”, but it’s just that I Ioved that music and wanted to play it.
I like the cinematic affect of music; that’s why I even experiment with formats.
YOUR ALBUM ABOUT CARL SANDBERG HONEY AND SALT, WAS ALMOST LIKE A TV SHOW, COMPLETE WITH NARRATION
One of the things is to connect with as many of the senses as possible.
When I have my students listen to recordings, I also want them to see them. See where the band is. Like, when you hear a record, you can remember the first time that you heard it. A lot is associated with our sonic memory, it’s not just “oh, that’s a blues”.
When people have records that they’re connected to, it’s probably an experience that did that to them more than someone telling them that they had to have that record.
One time we were doing a workshop (with Arts and Crafts) , and we were talking about recordings, and Miles Davis and someone said, Charles Taffer said, “I way more into Milestones than Kind of Blue, but I listened to Kind of Blue because everyone told me to listen to it.”
The same with me, I love Workin’, Cookin’ and Steamin’ more than anything else because they were there for me at the right place at the right time. You may have an affinity towards a certain record because you heard that band live.
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“Part of the reason that music is boring is because it’s presented in a boring way”
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YOU DID SOMETHING THAT MANY MEN FACE-BALANCE TAKING CARE OF A WIFE WITH A SEVERE HEALTH ISSUE AND KEEPING A CAREER INTACT. HOW DID YOU MANAGE IT FOR SO MANY YEARS? DID YOU COMPARTMENTALIZE?
I THINK EVERY MAN THAT FACES THIS ASKS HIMSELF A KEY QUESTION, “WHICH IS INTERRUPTING WHICH?” IS TAKING CARE OF MY WIFE INTERRUPTING MY WORK, OR IS IT THE OTHER WAY AROUND? HOW DO YOU BALANCE CAREER WITH “LIFE”?
Well, you have to roll on with everything.
After she passed, I then had to deal with raising the kids. I had one out of college and three still in, so I’m still working with all of that.
For me, I have to be busy to get things done. So I had to keep things going both ways.
With her, it was a balance. Sometimes I’d have to have things cancelled, and people were understanding. You have to do what you have to do.
A lot of it made the music less important; but it also made it more important. Do you know what I mean? For me, music is not the end-all. It’s not all that I do.
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“A lot of it made the music less important; but it also made it more important. Do you know what I mean? For me, music is not the end-all. It’s not all that I do”
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YOU ALSO WERE SURROUNDED BY SOME PRETTY SPIRITUAL PEOPLE LIKE TERELL STAFFORD AND RON MILES. DID ANYONE GIVE YOU ANY ADVICE OR HELP TO GET YOU THROUGH THE ORDEAL?
Their best advice was just being there.
Ray Anderson was helpful. He went through kind of the same thing a few years before. Someone gave me a great book A Grief Observed by CS Lewis.
It’s like everything; you have to know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em. You have to think,”OK, I’m going to work on this now” but I wasn’t going to abandon any of it.
She wouldn’t have wanted that, either.
The first time I played after the stem cell transplant was in August, 2011, and we were playing the Lichefield Jazz Festival with quartet with strings. She came to the rehearsal sat down to play. She had played it before with us at another concert, but when she played it then, people heard her and said, “You sound really great; you must have really practiced”. She told them hadn’t touched anything at all; she didn’t want to practice or play without other people. “Why would I waste my time?” She wanted to play with other people. I’ll never forget that attitude.
That’s my attitude. Why play on line when I can do something at Smalls? I mean, I’ve been doing some broadcasts, but I’m willing to wait it out.
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“One of the things is to connect with as many of the senses as possible”
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THIS LATEST ALBUM (BIG HUG) IS A REUNION WITH SOME OLD FRIENDS.
These projects keep us together.
We did a gig a year ago last March at Temple University, where Terell teaches, doing a workshop in the afternoon. Terell wasn’t there, but his sons were, with his spiritual friend Tim Warfield playing tenor sax.So we’re there in the workshop doing things together with the students. Things from the album, even the Sonny and Cher things.
So, we’re sitting there after the workshop and us playing, and he turns to me and says, “This is not only one of the greatest jazz bands out there; this is one of the greatest bands!”
Sometimes we just don’t see the forest through the trees 2735. As a jazz musician, you always have to be trying something new.
Branford Marsalis’ band is so great. He could be doing all kinds of projects, like with Kurt Elling. But he tours and records with that band.
So, like that, I like doing things with others, but I like doing things with my own band, because we have a language. That is the purpose of doing a mix of doing music that we have played for a long time to doing something new and then playing things by other people, like “King of the Road”.
NOT MANY BANDS CAN SWING SONNY AND CHER AND INCLUDE SNIPPETS OF DONALD TRUMP SPEECHES
(chuckles) Part of that is I look for people who have the ability to welcome everything. Speaking from my 28th year in New York, it’s been a great observation to witness people welcoming a lot of things. We don’t compartmentalize anymore; it’s not like “This is bebop”, or “This is soul”
A lot of it is due to that this is the music that I heard growing up. I didn’t know better-and I’m glad I didn’t know better.
I’m just as appreciative of Kenny Clarke as I am of anything new. That’s a part of our history, and these guys I’m with have such a deep history and an appreciation for all kinds of things.
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“I like the cinematic affect of music; that’s why I even experiment with formats.”
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And, I’ve created their trust. We’ve played together so much that I can say “Let’s try this” and they’ll say, “Let’s do it”.
And sometimes with that kind of trust you want to bewilder them a little bit, just to add that little bit of…”What?” I like that!
You don’t want them to always agree; you want them to sometimes think “I’m not sure about this.” For this album there were certain things in my brain that I want to do, and for the first time the said, “I’m not quite sure what you want here, but I trust you, so we’ll do it. Don’t worry-it’s going to work out.” We put it together.
THAT’S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR
Jeff (Lederer) is a prime example. We’re serious musical partners; I bounce so much stuff off of him and vice versa. I did a project with him and Steve Swallow, then with Mary (his wife) and him on Eric Dolphy music. It’s beautiful.
So we’ve don’t things with an ensemble, with a choir. He’s the kind of guy where I’m drinking a cup of coffee early in the morning and call him up to bounce ideas off of him.
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“Music is like that; you’re hearing something and you create something new around it. You border it, whether it’s funny or serious. Reacting to something is in the mix”
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WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT YOURSELF DURING THIS LOCKDOWN?
That there are other things in life.
It’s going to come back; it’s not going away.
I’ve learned some physical aspects of my instrument a bit more. With no pressure, I don’t think “Oh, I’ve got to do this project” so I can take more time to work on technique.
I’ve been cooking a lot, slowing down a bit overall.
WHO INSTILLED YOUR POSITIVE ATTITUDE?
I can’t really specify one thing.
Being around folks that jump right in and do things.
One of my dad’s great sayings was “Let’s do something, even if it is wrong. Let’s try it.”
But there are times when things wear on you. Just as much as you need friends to share joys and enthusiasms, you have to have a few that you go to and say, “Man, this is a drag.”
I have that with my friends and a partner to bounce things off of.
But I feel most for my kids. I know what’s out there, but my daughter Donna just graduated from college. He’s a musical theater person and hasn’t jumped into the pool yet, so that’s frustrating, as I’ve been in the pool, and right now I’m out waiting to jump back in. But I know what that’s like. So I understand the challenges for young people at that point, so I’m trying to embrace that too.
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
“He was funny”
SO, WHO’S YOUR FAVORITE COMEDIAN?
Different people for different things.
I like stand up comedians, but I like people who are reactionary. People who interview really great.
For example, the legacy of Johnny Carson, or Dave Letterman because he was a Midwesterner and had that kind of sarcasm. That quickness of thinking.
Conan O’Brien once talked about that on an interview for The Actor’s Studio. 3524. He said that there’s a hormone released in people when they know they’re not set up. When you have an interview, and even if you have the notes, when it goes left you can go with it, a lot of people get excited by that, and some also get uptight. That’s why I like talk shows.
But I also like Richard Pryor, or Seinfeld, for just the observations. For old timers, I really like Charlie Callis.
I love Mort Sahl. Then there’s Norm Crosby. He used to mess up the words. Foster Brooks would character people.
Monty Python a big one, as they were funny and edgy. I appreciated Robin Williams’ artistry, but other times he just drove me nuts because he was so manic.
Steve Martin was also great for observations, and for the way he could express things. Chris Rock is great at that too.
Some people are real rehearsed and others are looser about it. I love it when people can just come out and be loose with the audience.
Carol Burnett was great, too. She was very physical, but she could also just answer questions at the beginning of her show, and she was great at it.
Redd Foxx was..whew! Those vaudeville kind of people.
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“sometimes with that kind of trust you want to bewilder them a little bit, just to add that little bit of…”What?” I like that!”
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WHAT IN YOUR LIFE GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Laughing. Coming up with something. Seeing something and joking about it.
Music is like that; you’re hearing something and you create something new around it. You border it, whether it’s funny or serious. Reacting to something is in the mix.
IN ORDER TO LAUGH, YOU HAVE TO HAVE HOPE. THAT’S WHY I READ THE BIBLE.
Absolutely. You need those kind of influences allow you step back and observe things. We can start hearing our own voice way too much.
I was listening to a baseball game and this guy was in a batting slump and how since he was 5 years old he’d get into these slumps and you start talking to yourself. They said 2/3 of your own thoughts are negative, which is why one of my favorite sayings is “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”.
You learn most of your lessons from people that aren’t music involved at all. We were on tour in the Pacific Northwest where we got on a flight, and this flight attendant knew that we were a band. We were flying from Montana to Seattle, and it was a super early 5am flight.
So we started talking to her, and we invited her to our concert, and she read one of the poems.
The next day she was the attendant on the flight back, and we’re all facebook friends now. You never know at the beginning of the day who you’re going to meet and change or be changed by.
RELATIONSHIPS ARE KEY.
A big aspect of our business is communication.
We do these “Drummerhead” things every Tuesday. We’re on number 18, and it’s amazing. We’ve had Kenny Washington, Adam Nussbaum, Victor Lewis, Billy Hart, John Riley, Carl Allen, Kendrick Scott, Jeff Hamilton, Jeff Watts was on last week. We just talk about things for 2 hours, and even at that we had to cut it off because we could go on for 24 hours. (laughs) Because of this we’ve developed relationships, where Jo LaBarbera will just call me up.
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“They said 2/3 of your own thoughts are ****negative, which is why one of my favorite sayings is “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”.
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I love the human aspect of playing, and once we come back to normal we will really listen to the music and not be so concerned about recording on their phone or ipad, but just be glad to be there, because we missed it. They’ll be there to welcome us.
MATT WILSON’S MUSIC HELPS US REMEMBER WHAT’S IMPORTANT IN LIFE. ONLY SOMEONE WHO HAS WALKED IN JOB’S FOOTSTEPS CAN HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REMIND US THAT MUSIC IS A REFLECTION OF RELATIONSHIPS, TO OUR FRIENDS, TO FAMILY, AND ULTIMATELY TO GOD.
IN A WORLD OF ANGER AND CACOPHONY, MATT REMINDS US THAT HUMOR REFLECTS HOPE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE NEED THESE DAYS.