AT AN AGE WHEN MOST OF HIS PEERS ARE SITTING BACK AND COLLECTING SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS, GUITARIST JOHN SCOFIELD CELEBRATES HIS 66TH YEAR IN A VENGEANCE, SURROUNDING HIMSELF WITH YOUNGER MUSICIANS AND STILL GOING FORWARD INTO NEW MUSICAL HORIZONS.
HIS LATEST ALBUM, COMBO 66, IS A SWINGING AND HARD HITTING AFFAIR, COMBINING HIS SIGNATURE TONE IN A VARIETY OF SETTINGS. HE RECENTLY TOURED WITH THE BAND FROM THE ALBUM TO RAVE REVIEWS.
WE HAD A CHANCE TO CATCH UP WITH JOHN, AND AS ALWAYS, WAS POLITE AND INFORMATIVE ABOUT HIS CURRENT MUSICAL AND LIFE SITUATION>
YOU HAVE A TRULY UNIQUE SOUND. HOW DID YOU COME ACROSS IT, THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR, OR USE OF PEDALS? IS YOUR TONE A MEANS TO TRY TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING?
***Well, my tone is my trying to achieve a good sound (laughs). It’s more of what I don’t want it to sound like.
I don’t use pedals on this or any of the other last records; it’s just going through an amp. The distortion that you hear is what a tube amp does when you turn it up to a certain volume.
With guitar, it’s first of all in your fingers. You just mess around with the guitar and you get a sound that works for jazz. I’ve always liked horn players, and guitars have a natural sustained thing that holds longer than a piano, so I can get a vocal-hornlike quality on the electric guitar.
The orthodox jazz guitar sound from the ‘40s on was different. I use some of the articulations more associated with blues guitar, so that’s a bit different from the mainstream jazz guitar sound.
“My tone is my trying to achieve a good sound. It’s more of what I don’t want it to sound like”
WAS OR IS THERE SOMEONE’S SOUND THAT IS YOUR HOLY GRAIL?
A lot of the guys I wish I could be. As a teenager I loved Pat Martino; he was so driving and so articulate in his sound. It was something that I could never achieve (laughs).
I then started to listen to Jim Hall, who’s got a different thing than Pat, but I loved his music. He was certainly swinging also, but I found out I couldn’t quite be him.
Wes Montgomery always seemed unapproachable to me. What George Benson does on the guitar is godlike. Django Reinhardt was a monster.
That’s why I thought that Jim Hall was an alternative for me. He had an approach that was more lyrical but at the same time deep and swinging.
IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU BRING HALL UP. YOU CAME OF MUSICAL AGE DURING THE ERA OF ELECTRIC GUITAR CHOP MASTERS LIKE JOHN MCLAUGHLIN AND AL DIMEOLA, WHERE THE MUSICAL GOAL SEEMED TO PLAY FASTER AND FASTER. YOU, BILL FRISELL AND PAT METHENY WENT MORE LYRICAL AND TONAL, ALMOST AS AN ANTI-MATTER TO THEIR MATTER.
WAS YOUR PLAYING A CONSCIOUS DECISION AND RESPONSE TO THE “FASTEST GUN IN THE WEST” MENTALITY AT THE TIME?
Well, I certainly tried to go there, but I sounded like I didn’t go there (laughs).
One of the diseases of the ‘70s was superchops. McLaughlin was just unbelievable at what he did. The music in the ‘70s reached a point where it just couldn’t go any faster.
It actually probably started with bebop.
“One of the diseases of the ‘70s was superchops. McLaughlin was just unbelievable at what he did. The music in the ‘70s reached a point where it just couldn’t go any faster”
IT’S LIKE THE SONG IN OKLAHOMA, “THEY’VE TAKEN IT AS FAR AS IT CAN GO”
Exactly (laughs)
LET’S TALK ABOUT SOME OF YOUR REAL EARLY RECORDINGS, LIKE WITH CHET BAKER.
That was You Can’t Go Home Again, when Chet came back to New York. It was one of his “returns” to America. They saw it as a sort of “Chet plays fusion.” I just got called for the date and showed up; it was put together by Don Sebesky. He put it together and it was a thrill to go in there with Chet. I had met him on the Chet Baker-Gerry Mulligan reunion, which was the first record I was ever on.
I get into the studio, and there’s Chet Baker, Tony Williams, Mike Brecker and Tony Williams! All of those guys were my idols. I felt lucky to be there and was very nervous!
DID YOU EVER PICK THE BRAINS OF THESE GUYS, OR WERE YOU TOO INTIMIDATED?
I did a number of gigs with Gerry Mulligan, and he was very kind to me. We were a younger band and he was very patient. I didn’t think I could play then but I guess let me play and was very nice to me.
He had decided to augment his group with vibes and guitar, so he re-arranged his music for that instrumentation. It was great to just be around him. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized how great Gerry was, as I’ve gone back to his older stuff. I was lucky to be there.
Same thing with Chet Baker. On those couple of recordings he was also very kind; he was like a beatnik! He had cool things to say about the music; all those guys had deep thoughts. Playing with all of those greats, Miles included, was like listening to wise old men that could really do it. Then, they’d talk about their elders, like Charlie Parker.
YOU ALSO PLAYED ON A “RINGER” OF A CHARLES MINGUS ALBUM, THREE OR FOUR SHADES OF BLUES, WHICH HAD YOU, LARRY CORYELL AND PHILLIP CATHERINE ON GUITARS. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
In the same way with Chet, those guys were just looking for young guitar players. Mingus decided to do an album with electric guitars. Larry, Phillip and I were added to a large ensemble.
I think it was because of the fusion thing in the 70s, but Mingus didn’t want to play fusion. So, he just thought he’d try adding some guitars instead.
All of these recordings I did in the ‘70s were intimidating. It was basically “hold onto your seat and be glad you’re there.” All of these older guys were nice to me as well.
OF THE ARTISTS THAT YOU MET, WHO’S BRAIN DID YOU PICK THE MOST AND LEARN FROM?
Miles, because I was with him for three years. It was great to hear him talk about music and tell us what to do.
My real mentor is a guy who’s not that old, bass player Steve Swallow. He taught me how to act; I ‘d watch and listen to him, and it was like the history of jazz.
Gary Burton; when I went to Berklee he came to teach. He’d come to our student apartment everyday while waiting for the traffic to subside and we’d jam with him. It was fantastic! Chip Jackson and Ted Steebs were my drummer and bass player who lived with me. I met Swallow through Gary and we all played together.
Steve had this whole history of starting with Dixieland guys and playing those kind of gigs as a kid before moving on to play with Stan Getz, Paul Bley, Art Farmer and Gary Burton in the 60s.
What I got from all of those guys was how jazz was passed down to me, and I just ate it all up.
All of these older guys talked about how they’d approach the music psychologically, and how to psyche yourself up into playing something fresh. The big debate was “His playing is hot, but is that guy just playing licks, or was he really in the moment?” because all these guys, especially Miles, believed that the ‘in-the-moment’ freshness with the band really communicating and swinging together…well, there’s nothing like that.
“Miles believed that the ‘in-the-moment’ freshness with the band really communicating and swinging together…well, there’s nothing like that”
IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MILES, AS SOMETIMES WHEN HE TURNED HIS BACK TO THE AUDIENCE DURING THOSE FINAL YEARS, HE GAVE OFF THE AURA THAT HE WASN’T INTO THE MUSIC.
Miles was always 100% into the music. It might not have been a successful gig, and it did get pretty loud. He was trying to put some stuff together, but he always played deep (stuff) every night, even if it was just an A7 vamp. He would do these things, even get atonal, and it would get incredible.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE WHEN YOU FIRST JOINED MILES?
There were two guitars when I joined, with Mike Stern, for the first year. I was by myself after that.
WHEN DO YOU THINK THE GUITAR BECAME YOUR FRIEND?
Probably in my mid-30s at the earliest. Right around the time I played with Miles, or right after that. It’s around that time I finally had enough confidence.
The guitar is a fickle friend.
YOU SEEM TO HAVE A LOYAL COMRADERY WITH DRUMMERS AND TENOR SAX PLAYERS. YOU’VE DONE MANY SESSIONS WITH COBHAM, DEJOHNETTE AND STEWART.
I love the rhythmic aspect of jazz. I like hot jazz, and who can generate that better than a drummer?
I love the piano too, but it’s a harder blend with guitar, so I don’t always choose to play with them.
I love all horns, but the tenor sax has the same range as the guitar. When I played with Joe Lovano we really got a sound together that really worked.
IF YOU WEREN’T A MUSICIAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU’D HAVE CHOSEN FOR A CAREER?
I’d probably be roaming the streets, or teaching 7th grade History.
I’m lucky in that respect; I really wanted to be a musician and part of “the scene” of the music world. The idea of being a musician was an opportunity not to be a guy working a regular gig. I was lucky because I got to start playing for money when I was really young and it just kept going.
“The guitar is a fickle friend”
YOU HAVE SECRET LOVES AS WELL BESIDES JAZZ, AS YOU’VE PUT OUT A NUMBER OF R&B AND GOSPEL ALBUMS AS WELL.
I’ve always loved that music. I started off in the 60s like a lot of people my age. A lot R&B had crossed over to pop music with Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, James Brown and Wilson Pickett. Everybody heard that music. That was “popular” music, and I played in bands that covered those songs, and we loved that stuff. We were trying to be little blue-eyed soul brothers.
That was my earliest experience although at the same time I liked jazz. If you played on a Saturday night, you played the pop stuff.
THERE’S BEEN A REAL CROSS BREEDING BETWEEN JAZZ, COUNTRY, GOSPEL AND R&B THAT PEOPLE DON’T APPRECIATE
There’s more between country and black performers than people realize. We know that from Ray Charles!
You listen to Western Swing and Bluegrass, they’re playing eighth notes. And Chet Atkins was a marvelous guitar player.
YOU’RE NOW 66, AT AN AGE WHEN MANY GUYS RETIRE OR AT LEAST SLOW DOWN, YOU ARE HAVING A RENAISSANCE WITH TWO GRAMMYS. 1947
It’s really nice to get a Grammy and everything. You get older and you think of all of your idols that didn’t get a Grammy. So, you can’t get too bent out of shape getting one, but it is nice to be recognized.
Of course, I’m still out here in the trenches just like everybody else. It’s still a lot of work and takes concentration.
WHEN YOU GOT THE AWARD FOR “I’M SO LONESOME I COULD CRY,” DID YOU GO BACK AND LISTEN TO SEE WHY IT WON?
I knew it was the song where I was trying to be the most burning, and I’m glad somebody thought it was. I remember we had two takes of it, and we almost used the first take. I’m glad I didn’t, because the second take, despite its rough edges, I thought was better. But you really don’t know; I can’t listen to my own stuff, basically.
You move forward; it’s all a work in progress.
YOUR NEW ALBUM COMBO 66 MIXES OLD FRIEND BILL STEWART WITH SOME NEW TEAMMATES.
Talk about drummers; Bill Stewart is phenomenal. A jazz man to the core.
I asked Bill who I should get, and he recommended Vicente Archer, as they played together with Nicolas Payton. This guy is killin’.
I knew about Gerald Clayton because for years my wife and I have been friends with (bassist and band leader) John Clayton. I heard him years ago when he was in high school, and he was really good then. I played with him a couple years ago and realized that he’d blossomed into a real super-talent.
YOU’VE PLAYED WITH STEWART SINCE 1989. DO YOU READ EACH OTHER’S MIND AT THIS POINT?
He’s a freak in that he has a musical ability that is just natural, although I know he’s really worked at it. He’s a great musician; he also plays piano and understands the structure of music really well. He writes tunes, everything. He plays the drums like a piano player. He’s comping with those sticks.
HAVE YOU EVER DONE AN ACOUSTIC ALBUM?
No. I’m pretty much an electric guitar player. I did one record where I played acoustic, it’s called Quiet.
I like the way the record came out because I orchestrated it for six horns and blended in the acoustic guitar. But I’m pretty much and electric guy with drums. As we know, the guitar was a real rhythm instrument earlier as it couldn’t play as loudly as the other instruments.
COMBO 66 IS ALSO ABOUT BEING IN YOUR SIXTIES. TELL ME ABOUT BEING A GRANDFATHER
It’s great, because they go home! They leave the house and you can go to sleep (laughs). I love my grand kids. It’s one of my great joys to hang with them. Who would have thought; I’m glad they live in New York and I get to see them fairly often.
YOU ALSO LIVE NEAR THE ENGINEER OF YOUR HUDSON ALBUM, SCOTT PETITO. WHAT WAS HIS ROLE ON THAT ALBUM?
We didn’t have a producer; we did it ourselves. When it’s just four musicians and one guy turning the knobs, you listen to what he says. Scott’s a musician as well, and he will give the vibe if he thinks something is working or not, which is a big contribution as to what we’re doing.
THAT ALBUM ALSO GOT RAVE REVIEWS AND AWARDS
I’m glad that it did, and I love all those guys, John Medeski, Jack Dejohnette and Larry Grenadier. Jack has also been one of my teachers. I see him as one who’s been connected to the older music that I love so much. He and Steve Swallow, both in their 70s, were around and playing the music that I just love. I still pick their brains.
HOW DOES JAZZ PRESENT ITSELF TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION? IS JAZZ FOR ALL PEOPLE OR JUST FOR THE “COGNICENTI”?
We’re always trying to figure out who the ‘cognicenti” are! (laughs) You never know. It can be anyone who is exposed to the music.
I have found that with my kids that they were around it when they were young, and got back into it later in their 20s as fans. It wasn’t alien to them later on; it was like, “Oh, that stuff that my dad plays.”
I guess jazz isn’t popular music, but it is music. There’s successful musicians in all genres. That includes hip hop and country; music jazz people aren’t supposed to like.
AND IT’S IRONIC THAT SONNY ROLLINS’ MOST POPULAR ALBUM HAS HIM PLAYING COUNTRY TUNES ON WAY OUT WEST
Well, about as Country Western as Ray Brown and Shelly Manne can get!
IS THERE ANY TEACHING, PHILOSOPHY OR RELIGION THAT INSPIRES YOU?2826
The great mysteries of life are still mysteries to me. You do feel that there’s something that ties all of us together. There are all of these subtle things that we share, just from a glance, a look or a whiff of inspiration.
That’s the great thing about music; you want to play and improvise music on that level where you’re receptors are up to whatever is going on, and just allowing something to happen.
As far as what other people will like, I’ll get something musically going and other people will recognize it.
DO YOU HAVE ANY MUSICAL OR LIFE GOALS?
To sound good! (laughs)
To be part of a band and contribute something musical with the other guys.
At this point I just love playing so much; I hope I can keep making it and that the gigs keep happening.
I just came back from Asia on this crazy tour where my wife came with me. I think we flew 24 hours each way to get to Asia, and we ended up playing just three concerts.
The amount of flying and hanging between the gigs was huge, but each of these three gigs was a huge joy.
I guess if I stayed in New York I could teach and play on the local scene, but it wouldn’t be the same as getting to play original music with excellent musicians doing your own thing. You’ve got to travel to do that.
WHAT’S MADE YOUR MARRIAGE LAST SO LONG?
She puts up with me and this wacky lifestyle. I thank God we’re a team; it sure helps to have a partner.
NOT ONLY ARE YOU KNOWN AS A GREAT MUSICIAN, BUT EVERY ARTIST MENTIONS YOUR KINDNESS
It’s got to be a celebration to a certain extent to play these gigs. As Miles used to tell me, we’re all good players, but “Attitude is everything”. You can take that a lot of ways, as maybe Miles thought he’d be a bad &(%#@ so nobody could get to him, or you can embrace the musicians. Actually this was what Miles was doing. He loved musicians.
We have to make it feel good when we’re up there.
“As Miles used to tell me, ‘We’re all good players, but attitude is everything.'”
JOHN CONTINUES TO HIT A NEW STRIDE. HE’S RETURNING TO LA UNDER A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MUSICAL SETTING AT THE ACE HOTEL WITH LETTUCE ON MARCH 20, MAKING ONE WONDER WHAT HIS NEXT ALBUM WILL BE LIKE. IF IT’S ANYTHING LIKE HIS TEMPERAMENT, EXPECT SOMETHING THOUGHTFUL, LYRICAL, CREATIVE, WARM AND INQUISITIVE.