MONEY DOES FUNNY THINGS TO PEOPLE. SOME PEOPLE THINKS IT MAKES YOU NICER AND HAPPIER, BUT AS THE BIBLE SAYS, ‘THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.’ OTHERS THINK IT IS AN EVIL THING IN AND OF ITSELF, WHICH IS WHY POLITICIANS WANT TO RELIEVE THIS EVIL FROM YOU AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. BUT AS THE JUST MENTIONED VERSE POINTED OUT, IT’S NOT THE MONEY, BUT THE LOVE OF IT THAT CAUSES THE PROBLEMS. THAT IS WHY THE WISEST MAN IN THE BIBLE PRAYED, “LORD, DON’T MAKE ME SO RICH THAT I HAVE TOO MUCH AND SAY “WHO IS THE LORD?” OR BECOME POOR AND STEAL, AND DISHONOR THE NAME OF THE LORD.”
WHAT MONEY TENDS TO DO IS TO ACTUALLY REVEAL WHAT WE ARE LIKE DEEP DOWN INSIDE. A ROTTEN PERSON BECOMES MORE ROTTEN WITH MONEY, AND A KINDHEARTED ONE GETS MORE KINDHEARTED.
STEVE COLEMAN HAS BEEN ON A QUEST BOTH MUSICALLY AND PERSONALLY, LOOKING FOR HIS OWN PLACE IN THIS WORLD BOTH MUSICALLY AND HISTORICALLY, CREATING SOME OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND YET ACCESSIBLE MUSIC IN THE PROCESS WITH HIS GROUP THE FIVE ELEMENTS.
HIS PEERS MUST HAVE BEEN NOTICING, AS THE MAC ARTHUR FOUNDATION RECENTLY REWARDED COLEMAN WITH A “GENIUS GRANT.” THIS IS BESTOWED TO ARTISTS WHO SET NEW TRAILS, AND AS THE FOUNDATION SAID, COLEMAN WAS REWARDED FOR “INFUSING ICONIC SPONTANEOUS IDIONS WITH THE MELODIC, RHYTHMIC AND STRUCTURAL COMPONENTS OF AN ECLECTIC RANGE OF MUSICAL TRADITIONS TO CREATE A DISTINCTIVE NEW SOUND.” IN OTHER WORDS, THEY GAVE HIM SOME BIG BUCKS FOR BEING AN ADVENTUROUS JAZZ ARTIST.
WE RECENTLY MET UP WITH STEVE COLEMAN, AS HE WAS IN THE MIDST OF A 3 WEEK “RESIDENCY” AT THE BLUE WHALE JAZZ CLUB. HE GAVE US INSIGHT INTO HIS WORLD OF RESEARCH, MUSIC AND WHAT THE PRAISE FROM HIS PEERS MEANS TO HIM.
WHO WAS YOUR FIRST INFLUENCE IN PLAYING MUSIC?
I can’t remember my first influence; I’ve always liked music. The first person I seriously studied was Charlie Parker. I was trying to learn how to improvise, I didn’t know much at the time, and I heard that he was supposed to be the guy who was a genius at modern improvisation. I was kind of flying in the dark; I didn’t know much about him at the time.
I had some important mentors in Chicago; I guess the main guy would be Von Freeman. I’m still learning from him. He’s influenced me in every area; melodic, rhythmic, playing the horn.
I didn’t take any lessons from him. From him or anyone else for that matter. I’ve never taken improvisation lessons from anyone. When I say that he was a mentor, what I mean is that I was around him a lot and I closely watched him and tried to figure out what he was doing playing live and everything. But he wouldn’t give me a lesson or anything like that. He wasn’t that kind of person to “teach” and give workshops and all that.
It was mainly what I picked up on my own. But over the years you pick up a lot of different things. I guess the main thing was how conversational his playing was. It was like talking. But, for someone who’s just reading that, they might not understand all that that means. But he was a very conversational player. He plays like he talks.
HOW ABOUT YOUR DAYS WITH SAM RIVERS?
His influence on me was more from his compositions. I played in his big band and also with Thad Jones.
All of these people were born in 1923 by the way. Freeman, Rivers and Thad Jones, so there was a certain age group that I was learning from.
With Thad and Sam, they influenced me more from the compositional standpoint. With Von it was the playing. There was also another guy, Bunky Green, but he was younger. I think he was born in 1935. But all of these guys were older than me.
WHY WAS THAT AGE GROUP SO APPEALING TO YOU?
Because they knew what they were doing. They were experienced. I wasn’t crazy; If you want to learn, you’ve got to learn from somebody that has more experience.
If you want to become a good shoemaker, you learn from a master shoemaker. With anything, you need to learn from someone who has more experience and who’s been down that road before.
I’m not saying you can’t learn from younger people. Of course you can. But the chances are that the people who have more experience are going to be the people who have been around before you.
THERE’S ONE THING GOD DIDN’T MAKE, AND THAT’S A SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE
That’s right.
YOU’VE ALSO EMBARKED ON A NUMBER OF RESEARCH TRIPS. WHAT WAS THE THOUGHT BEHIND THEM?
There are two things I do that have helped me out a lot. One is going around , travelling and checking out other cultures. Whether they are older cultures which were around before the United States was formed, or whether they are cultures that are similar to the US like Cuba or Brazil. Places like that, that have a similar history in some ways.
Things that happened in the countries where aboriginal people were wiped out. Similar to what happened in America.
There have been countries I’ve been to, like Ghana, The Ivory Coast, Senegal, Indonesia, Egypt , India. These places have had an older history than the US. They have many traditions that go back further. So that’s one thing that I’ve done; I try to learn more things of what I’m interested in.
The other thing that I study is a lot of ancient history. Of course, you can’t study that by going there, and I don’t have a time machine! You also don’t have any audio or video for me from 2000 BC, so I study that stuff mostly from ancient texts.
Thomas Goodman taught me that. He told me to go back to as original a material as I can. Looking at a translation of something, like something that Herodotus wrote. I should go and check out the actual words themselves. Well, I don’t read ancient Greek, but he told me to check out the closest translation possible.
I’ve done a lot of that; a lot of studying of source material. I try to get as close to when people were writing at any given time. Whether it was the 1600s, the 1500s or 300BC or whatever. That’s helped me out a lot tremendously.
HOW DOES THIS HELP YOU AS A PERSON AND AS A MUSICIAN?
It’s broadened everything for me in terms of seeing possibilities. Looking at what other people have done and other approaches. You look at what’s been done through history and it gives you a more panoramic view of everything. A lot of times you realize that you’re dealing with problems that people have dealt with before. If you know about this you’re not just reinventing the wheel; you can learn from what they did to solve the same problems.
For example, things like intervals, octaves and the fifth…this stuff is not new. It’s thousands of years old, and the way people have been looking at rhythm is thousands of years old. That’s what I’ve discovered. I used to ask my teachers in high school when they would say, “ This is a C scale, and this is this and that is the melodic minor.” I would ask “Where does all of this come from? Who invented this?” because it didn’t grow on trees. They wouldn’t answer me.
So, by studying, I’m finding out these answers. I’ve always wanted to know where something comes from. How old is improvisation? What is the different ways that people have improvised before? I want to know historically what’s been happening with it.
This gives you context, and it helps you make better informed decisions on your own music. Or as a person, you need context by learning history.
IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOU CAME FROM, YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOU’RE GOING.
You’re flying blind. The more information that you have, the better you can make more informed decisions. Even about your own thing, whether it’s creating music you’re not just making decisions haphazardly. You get a more rounded view, and you also have more material to work with.
I’ve read texts that people wrote in ancient Egypt, and I’m astounded by how much people were doing back then.
THAT REMINDS ME OF A QUOTE BY GK CHESTERTON, WHO SAID “THOSE WHO ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH THE PAST IS LIKE BEING THE DROP OF WATER IN THE FAUCET WHO DOESN”T CARE ABOUT THE OCEAN FROM WHICH IT CAME”
That’s right. And there’s always more to know. What you know is nothing in comparison to what you don’t know.
LET’S TALK ABOUT MORE RECENT HISTORY. WHAT WAS THE INSPIRATION TO CREAT MUSIC ABOUT HEART SOUNDS AND JOINTS? ARE YOU BECOMING A CARDIOLIGIST OR CHIROPRACTOR?
It’s hard to talk about a particular album or cd, because the albums are not the focus for me. The focus for me is the live playing. The album is just an imitation of what’s going on every day; every once in awhile we make a cd, which is like taking a snap shot of where we are at that particular moment.
Cds are not the point. I’m not planning my whole career toward making cds. It’s not like pop music. The recordings are just documentations on the path that we’re on. My focus is the path, not the cd or a particular concert.
Sometimes you’ll play a festival like at North Sea, and someone will come up to you and say “How does it feel to play the North Sea Festival?” That’s not the focus. Of course you’re happy to be doing every step that you’re doing, but the focus is the entire path. Not one particular thing on the path.
So, yes…putting out cds is important to me, and playing at the Blue Whale for 3 weeks is important to me. But I’m concentrating on the music itself and the progress that we’re making. I’m not focusing on “Oh, I got this award” or “They said this about me in Downbeat.”
WITH THAT ATTITUDE, WAS THE MACARTHUR AWARD A SURPRISE BLESSING , A DISTRACTION OR A TOOL? HOW DID YOU INITIALLY RESPOND?
It’s actually all of those in different ways. It was definitely a surprise; It’s kind of a rare award. It’s not really a “music” award. They give it to scientists, people studying ants (laughs), so if a musician gets it it’s not that one will get it each year. It’s not like the other musical awards where they give it to 25 musicians or something like that.
So of course it was a surprise. There are so many cats out here that the chances of getting it are fairly low, I would say. There are a lot of other deserving people. The other thing is that it’s a private foundation. It’s their money and they can give it to whomever they want. If they want to give it to a bum on the street, we can’t say too much because they can do what they want with their money.
It’s not like people saying which people “deserve” it or not. It’s not about that to me. I thought that way even before I got it. It’s about who they decide to give it to. If it was about people who I thought deserved it, there’s a long line of cats who’d have gotten it.
They didn’t ask me about it before I got it. They have asked me about other artists since I got it. But it’s not like I make the decisions.
But, it is a reflection of what your peers think of you, because they do quiz a large body of musicians and get recommendations. But it is very secretive. I don’t know how the process works, and they don’t tell you even after you get the award.
But I know that they are quizzing a lot of people and you can be on their list for a long time. They are asking people what they think of you. If they give it to a doctor they are asking other top doctors. If it’s a poet they ask top poets. It’s not like the whole board knows a whole lot about these things; they quiz people in their fields. So, it’s somewhat a reflection of what people in your field think about you.
HAS IT CHANGED YOU?
It doesn’t change your music. It doesn’t change anything as far as the actual music. What does come with it is recognition. You can get more gigs. You can maybe use the money to do larger projects. Right after, I talked to Sonny Rollins about it right after I got it. He said “Congratulations, Steve, but I’m going to tell you that the award doesn’t mean s..t. “ He’s telling me “Look, I’ve gotten awards and it doesn’t mean anything. The music comes from inside of you. You have to develop yourself. You can get 50 awards; it won’t write one composition.” He’s right about that.
I’M A DOCTOR, AND IT’S THE SAME THING. YOU CAN GET ALL THE AWARDS AND DEGREES, BUT IT COMES DOWN TO “CAN HE MAKE SICK PEOPLE WELL?”
There should be a point to what you’re trying to do. Of course it’s nice if you get some recognition. But, rock musicians are dwarfing what we make, and MacArthur doesn’t even notice it. It’s a drop in the bucket. So, it’s a prestigious thing, but it’s not what people think it is. It’s not going to change your whole life where someone gives you millions of dollars.
DO THEY PUT STIPULATIONS ON IT?
Not for that one. There are other awards that do that, with strings attached. But let’s face it; most people when they get money, they’re not going to think it’s a bad thing. If you mess it up, you’re still going to have to pay taxes on it, so that’s on you. They don’t help you with that, except say “Get a financial advisor” or something.
HAS IT AFFECTED THE WAY YOU COMPOSE OR HIRE MUSIC?
I get more gigs, because people will hire you because I’m getting more recognition and all that. I don’t believe in that, but that’s the way the world is.
It could give you some backup to do that it would normally be hard to get support for, because you now have the money to pay for some of it yourself.
For example, these residencies that I’m doing. A lot of these residencies I’m backing myself. I’m trying to find funding and all that, but if everything doesn’t come through I can pitch in something. So I can use it for that and to keep the musicians in my group working.
ARE YOU DOING ANYTHING BETWEEN THE NIGHTLY SHOWS DURING YOUR RESIDENCIES?
Yes. We’re doing some outreach with some local…I won’t say “non-profits,” but with young musicians and young kids. We do some stuff in disadvantaged communities; we’re doing workshops for advanced musicians all next week at the Blue Whale, Tuesday through Sunday from 3:00 to 6:00. This is for musicians who come and want to get very very deep into the music.
The community stuff is more like open rehearsals; we rehearse in front of an audience. Musicians and non-musicians. The audience then has a chance to ask us questions about what we’re doing and how we’re putting together our music. We can stop and say “Well, we look at it like this and like that.’
It’s not really a workshop; it’s more like we’re rehearsing, and they are watching us rehearse. For young kids were doing lecture-demonstrations. They’ve never even seen people play an instrument before.
SO, YOU’RE DOING WORKSHOPS 3-6, AND THEN PLAYING AT THE BLUE WHALE FROM 9-MIDNIGHT. THAT’S A FULL DAY!!
Right , that was last week; this week we went to UCLA and did a workshop there for four hours. That is a tiring day; four hours at UCLA and then doing a gig. We’re also going to do something at a place called The World Stage. It’s a community center at Leimert Park. We’re going to do something at a bookstore there. Do an open rehearsal along with other things.
Some of the things are really improvisational. They just pop up; they aren’t really planned way in advance.
We rented a house, and we’re staying in the house for three weeks. We’re using it as a base and then going to different things. We’re going to Cal Arts on Monday over in Valencia (which is a good drive-ed) to do a workshop there. We’re going to schools.
AND YOU’RE DRIVING A LOT!!
Oh, yeah. And I drove out here from the East Coast!
I’m determined to do these residencies. We’ve done one in Chicago for four weeks, we did one in Philadelphia for two weeks, we’re doing this one here in Los Angeles for three weeks. We’re also looking to do something in Detroit.
We plan on coming back. We’re not wanting to do just one residency; we want to make it an annual thing. We’re doing this in different p laces and different cities.
YOU’VE DONE RESEARCH FOR HISTORY FOR IT’S OWN SAKE AND FOR LEARNIN MORE ABOUT MUSIC. HAS THIS AFFECT YOU ON ANY TYPE OF A SPIRITUAL JOURNEY?
I don’t follow a particular organized religion. But I am very much into what most people call “spiritual.” But, it’s hard to describe in a few words what it is. For me, it’s just Nature from my point of view. But that means different things to different people. So, if I say that, people can only take that for what it means for them.
I believe that there’s something happening that is much higher than us, but it’s not like an old man in the sky who gets jealous and floods the earth.
I’ve studied a lot of different myths, and I think most religions are myths. That may insult some people, but I do think there’s something behind it. I check out all of the spiritual traditions because I want to learn what people are trying to say about why they are here and what they’re doing.
WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR?
I’d like to make a contribution to creativity. I’m trying to do my part in that.
I’m not in control about how I’m remembered, so I’m not worried about that. I’m just trying to make a contribution because there have been people who have given me stuff. They’ve given me information, their time and I’m just trying to pass that down.
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE MONEY HE HAS RECEIVED AS A MEANS OF HONORING HIM HAS NOT AFFECTED HIS MUSICAL VISION. NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN HIS QUEST, WHICH IS THE GREATEST REWARD A TRUE ARTISTIC PILGRIM CAN DESIRE. KEEP CHECKING IN ON COLEMAN AS HE, LIKE MANY ARTISTS, “ARE RESTLESS UNTIL THEIR HEARTS FINALLY REST WITH THEE.”