WHEN YOU HEAR THE SOUND OF VINCENT HERRING’S ALTO SAX, YOU CAN HEAR THE LEGACY THAT HE CARRIES.
I HAVE SEEN HIM WITH CEDAR WALTON’S BAND, AS WELL AS DURING A TRIBUTE TO MILES DAVIS’ KIND OF BLUE WITH JIMMY COBB. ON HIS OWN AS A LEADER, HIS MUSIC HAS THE MIX OF THE SOUL OF CANNONBALL ADDERLEY AND THE SEARCHING OF JOHN COLTRANE COMBINED WITH HIS OWN PERSONAL AND MUSICAL EXPERIENCE.
RECENTLY HERRING GAVE A SERIES OF CONCERTS CELEBRATING THE MUSIC OF JOHN COLTRANE, NO SMALL FETE FOR AN ALTO PLAYER. JUST COMING OUT IS HIS ALBUM GIVING HOMAGE TO CANNONBALL ADDERELY, SOMETHING ELSE, THAT CAPTURES THE SPIRIT OF THE ICONIC ALTO SAXIST.
WE RECENTLY HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MR. HERRING, WHO EXPLAINS HIS MUSICAL WORLD VIEW. AS EXPECTED, HIS ANSWERS WERE WELL CONCEIVED, PERSONAL AND INTRIGUING. NOT UNLIKE HIS MUSIC!
YOU HAVE A STYLE AND SOUND THAT IS NOT APPROACHED MUCH ANYMORE, THAT CLASSIC “SOUL” ALTO SAX FEEL. WHAT GOT YOU INITIALLY INTERESTED IN THAT MODE?
I don’t necessarily think of it as a “style”, as I didn’t say to myself, “Vince, you’ve got a choice of flavors, so why don’t you just pick this one flavor?”
It’s just a matter of when you’re growing up and developing as a player, certain things appeal to you, and you gravitate towards certain fragments of the music. It then comes out digested by what you do with it.
I listened to certain people and certain music which influenced me that I loved so much.
So, I don’t think of myself in the way or style that you just described; I just think of it as just “playing”. It just happens to be my musical voice and personality
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“I don’t think of myself in (a) way or style…I just think of it as just “playing”. It just happens to be my musical voice and personality
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SO THIS SOUND IS NOW YOUR LANGUAGE?
Yes. Things evolve as I continue to live life and have influences. My playing will continue to evolve with it.
I’ve been fortunate to have been able to have some great experiences with some iconic people in the business, and those things have all influenced me. This has continued, as I have new friends and new peers. My friends have influenced me differently as my musical knowledge has grown. I meet new people and get new reactions
I know that in the music business we like to categorize things, but I’m not going to help with that. My musical personality is a matter of what I’ve digested and enjoy
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“My musical personality is a matter of what I’ve digested and enjoy”
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HOW DO YOU GIVE A CONCERT WITH RESPECT TO YOUR HEROES LIKE JOHN COLTRANE OR CANNONBALL ADDERLEY WITHOUT LOSING YOUR OWN MUSICAL IDENTITY?
I know what you mean, because while teaching I have had a few students that were on the verge of getting locking into a few things.
Jazz has always rewarded originality and creativity.
You have to find your personality while learning your lessons and the history of the music. That’s the way I prefer to do it.
I can recall playing along with some Sonny Stitt recordings. Was it addictive? Absolutely!
At the time, it seemed like nothing in the world could be better. But you have to grow through that and from it, and not get engulfed in it.
Some people get into Charlie Parker, and they think that is the end of life: everything is Charlie Parker. I suggest that you do those things for a period of time, but you can’t lose yourself in it.
Ultimately, you’re trying to find your own personality. So, you listen to Charlie Parker, but why not also McCoy Tyner and Freddie Hubbard? Find yourself through all of them.
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“Jazz has always rewarded originality and creativity”
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When I was a kid I played along with Cannonball Adderley records; I used to do it because it was fun. I was pretending I was Cannonball Adderley, and that the people were cheering for me and that I was matching notes with Nat Adderley. I would do that all day long trying to play it totally perfect and sound like Cannonball or Sonny Stitt or Phil Woods
What I didn’t understand was that I was developing my phrasing out of that. And I mean “my” phrasing, in that I made choices based on what I had heard in the past.
What makes you decide to tongue this, or slur that, or a combination of them in a spontaneous way is based on things that I’ve heard all of my life, and my interpretation.
I’m not trying to sound like anybody, but I do have all of these backgrounds and memories that are part of me.
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“Some people get into Charlie Parker, and they think that is the end of life: everything is Charlie Parker. I suggest that you do those things for a period of time, but you can’t lose yourself in it”
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SO MOVE FORWARD 20 YEARS AND YOU’RE ACTUALLY PLAYING WITH CANNONBALL’S BAND OF BROTHER NAT AND DRUMMER LOUIS HAYES. WHAT’S GOING ON IN YOUR MIND? ARE YOU THINKING “WHAT WOULD CANNONBALL DO”?
An interesting thing happened when I was working with Nat Adderley.
While staying at his house, he had a box of tapes and cds that musicians had mailed to him, telling him how much they loved Cannonball and they’d love to play with him.
He pointed to the box and said “People send me stuff all the time. I listen to it and think “Man, this guy really does sound like Cannonball’. But what I love about you is that you feel like Cannonball, but you don’t try to play like him.
I wasn’t trying to sound like Cannonball; I wasn’t trying to sound like anything. I was just making musical decisions based on what I had heard when I was playing those same tunes with Nat. It never dawned on me in any major way to play like Cannonball. I was trying to find my own voice and personality.
YOU’RE DOING A COLTRANE TRIBUTE AT THE SMOKE. ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE A COLTRANE FEEL TO IT, OR DO HIS SONGS YOUR WAY?
When you’re growing up, studying and playing this music, you can’t, or shouldn’t bypass John Coltrane. That’s a part of my youth and something that I grew up with; it’s a music that heavily influenced me.
I found it to be an emotionally important fabric of who I am. I found the technical aspects to be part of the fabric that makes up Vincent Herring
There is no “trying to play like Coltrane”. In the early part of his career, Coltrane tried to play like Sonny Stitt, Charlie Parker and Dexter Gordon. In fact the stuff we find on the early Coltrane recordings is him sounding like Dexter Gordon.
But as he evolved, Coltrane’s own personality took over and he found his own voice
So, I’m not going to sound like Coltrane, but the music is heavily Coltrane influenced and we’re going to play his compositions and songs associated with him.
I will play some tenor saxophone, which over the years I’ve had a history with.
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“Ultimately, you’re trying to find your own personality. So, you listen to Charlie Parker, but why not also McCoy Tyner and Freddie Hubbard? Find yourself through all of them”
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YOU DIDN’T START ON THE ALTO?
Early in my life, playing the tenor saxophone was a poor choice when I played with the late great Horace Silver
Horace heard me play the blues on the alto, and he told me that if I played the tenor he would hire me. I told him I was a tenor player, so I got the gig
But in reality, I wasn’t developed enough as a musician to have a job with that level. I wasn’t ready for that job. I was playing on a borrowed sax from Branford Marsalis and a mouthpiece from Ralph Moore.
I was practicing and sounding terrible. I called Ralph and told him there was something wrong with the mouthpiece. He said, “There’s nothing wrong with it”. He played it and it sounded great; I realized that I was in deep trouble.
I kept trying; I had months to practice before the gig, but I was years away from my development in being able to handle a gig of that nature.
That was the first time I really spent a lot of time on the tenor. I always loved the tenor, even as much as the alto, believe it or not, but it just wasn’t a part of my voice
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“The concept of logic and critical thinking is important to me. How to govern my life by making good, strong decisions”
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WHAT DID YOU DO?
I started working with Cedar Walton, and he said to me, “Why don’t you do some jobs with me until I find a tenor player that I like?” Those were his exact words
Next thing you know, one months turns into a year, then two years, and he says, “hey man, why don’t you play some tenor? You’d make a good one.”
He got Ronnie Scott’s family to loan me a tenor saxophone, and 86,000 Selmer Mark VI, so I was playing more tenor with Cedar, and starting to really enjoy it.
So the tenor is not foreign to me, but of course now we associate it with John Coltrane.
WHEN YOU SAY THAT YOU WERE READY ON THE ALTO, BUT NOT THE TENOR, WHAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE? WHY WAS THE TRANSITION SO DIFFICULT?
I had a voice on the alto, which was developing, as it’s always developing.
I had all the gear for the tenor, but not enough experience with it.
I had played with Cedar long enough to find a musical voice
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“When you’re growing up, studying and playing this music, you can’t, or shouldn’t bypass John Coltrane”
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WHAT DID YOU LEARN IN YOUR EARLY DAYS WITH LIONEL HAMPTON?
I enjoyed that job very much.
Lionel Hampton was an amazing musician himself.
I was playing on the streets in New York City, and someone asked me if I wanted to audition for the band.
That became my first trip to Europe, with Lionel Hampton’s Big Band. He had a lot of gigs that, collectively as musicians, we would say “ah, it’s a terrible gig”, but this one gig we had in Paris was for two weeks, and we each had single rooms. So THAT is a good gig! (laughs)
I met some lifelong friends there, and all of these experiences filter into your personality
I enjoyed my time with Lionel Hampton, and learned some interesting things about the business and myself. It was good for my evolution.
WHAT WAS YOUR BIGGEST TAKEAWAY FROM YOUR TIME WITH LIONEL HAMPTON?
It was witnessing his love and dedication to music, and as an entertainer.
This guy, to the day he died, loved music
We would travel long distances, and he would get to a sound check and really want to play. When he ***got on stage, he had a reputation for notoriously going overtime and playing longer because he genuinely loved the music and loved to play. It was what he loved to do in life.
It was nice to see that love of music in someone else, and to understand it. He found his life’s quest and fulfilled it. That got to me.
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“I started working with Cedar Walton, and he said to me, “Why don’t you do some jobs with me until I find a tenor player that I like?” Those were his exact words”
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WAS THERE ANY MAJOR LESSON YOU GOT FROM YOUR TIME WITH HORACE SILVER?
Horace Silver’s band was painful, because my development wasn’t there. So I learned that I had to learn more music! (laugh)
For a guy like myself that was kind of cocky, it was a humbling experience where I had a clear picture of that I was not ready, and what I needed to develop and work on
DID YOU FEEL YOU WERE READY WHEN YOU MET UP WITH FREDDIE HUBBARD?
Yes, I could actually play by then.
Freddie liked me, so he would call me and say things like “Hey man, who’s playing up there?” he’d ask me about different trumpet players; he loved Jeremy Pelt
He’d keep saying “I’m coming back” and I told him “You’ve been saying that as long as I’ve known you”
He was a great musician, and whenever he called, it was great because he’d be playing piano at midnight his time ( 3 am for me!), and say things like “There’s no one playing like me” until he heard ***Jeremy Pelt. He loved Jeremy because he played Freddie’s vocabulary.
We did one record Bolivia with Cedar Walton, Ralph Moore, David Williams and Billy Higgins. I was almost not on the record because Cedar had written all of these sextet arrangements, but they were going to redo the record because Freddie was not in shape. This was when his chop problems started
They salvaged two of the tracks, so I was on the record, which is very good
Later on, Cedar did a record called The Composer with me, Roy Hargrove, Ralph Moore, Christian McBride and Victor Lewis. Some of those arrangements were those we would have done on Freddie Hubbard’s record
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“(Lionel Hampton), to the day he died, loved music”
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YOU’VE PLAYED WITH SOME SERIOUS PIANISTS LIKE WALTON, SILVER, JOHN HICKS, KENNY BARRON, HAROLD MABERN. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES A PIANO PLAYER MAKE WHEN YOU’RE PERFORMING ON STAGE?
First of all, ALL musicians make a big difference for me.
I don’t go in with a mindset of trying conform or alter my playing. I am who I am, and people’s different style of playing influences what I choose to do. But, it’s nothing that I would calculate in advance; it just spontaneously happens
I once played with Chick Corea on a recording. Over time, what sounded good to me would change in that particular setting. If I were playing with Barry Harris, what sounds good to me would also change.
With one, more aggressive harmonic ideas would be welcomed with Chick Corea, those same aggressive harmonic ideas would not be appreciated playing with Barry Harris. And it’s not that “Barry wouldn’t like this”, it’s just that I wouldn’t even approach the music like that. It’s based on taste and instinct with what I’ve learned over the years.
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“You base your musical choices and decisions on the entirety”
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SO YOU’RE NOT LOCKING IN TO ONE PARTICULAR PLAYER, BUT TO THE WHOLE SCENARIO.
I do, and if you’re in a setting where the sound system favors someone, you have to make adjustments
But if everything is in an ideal setting, I don’t focus in on one person. I like to know if the drummer is dragging or not, or if he’s rushing a little bit. Maybe he and the bass player are not linking up, or the piano leads with his comping style; you’re not thinking about it in those terms, but you’re listening to it in its entirety. You base your musical choices and decisions on the entirety
The only time I would ever think of focusing on one person in an isolated way is if the band had a chaotic moment. Even then, you make that decision to go on and trust the decision of the musician which is locked into the time. That way I still have my center and hopefully everything works out.
If there is a situation where they drag or push, and you can’t get rid of them, you have to make adjustments, because ultimately the band is a team together. You don’t want to point out the imperfections of someone, but you want the band to sound as good as possible as a unit.
Even if a person may be a weak link, you still want them to sound good because you want to make a good listening experience for the audience. They might not understand someone’s limitations or the development level in their playing. But we don’t want to highlight it or show discomfort or disgruntled behavior just because they’re not on your level.
You try to blend in and do what you can to contribute to make the band itself sound good.
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“I called Ralph (Moore) and told him there was something wrong with the mouthpiece. He said, “There’s nothing wrong with it”. He played it and it sounded great; I realized that I was in deep trouble”
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AS A TEACHER, WHAT’S THE BIGGESTTHING THAT YOU EMPHASIZE?
That this is a lifetime of study, and everyone is different. We’re all handed different gifts, and that doesn’t mean that your prospects of being good are less or better than others. You must be humble, and realize that your career is a quest for knowledge, for resolving musical issues and finding your musical personality
WHAT IS THE BEST ADVICE SOMEONE HAD GIVEN YOU?
It’s a good question, and one I should have an answer for, but I don’t. I’ve been given a lot of good advice, and didn’t take all of it. I certainly wish that I had.
WHAT WOULD TODAY’S VINCENT WANT TO TELL THE 20 YEAR OLD VINCENT?
Don’t be in a rush; be thorough in everything that you do.
That’s something that came to me later, but had I understood that I would have been much more methodical in my practicing and my studies. I wouldn’t have taken me so long to reach my development; I would have been ready sooner, like with my time with Horace Silver.
ARE THERE ANY BOOKS THAT YOU’VE READ THAT HAVE GUIDED YOU OR INFLUENCED YOU DEEPLY?
Some different books on logic.
The concept of logic and critical thinking is important to me. How to govern my life by making good, strong decisions. I haven’t always done that, but I have two kids, and I can say that they have pretty much done that. (laughs) They are doing quite well in life.
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“But what I love about you is that you feel like Cannonball, but you don’t try to play like him”
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WHO INSPIRED YOU TO THINK SO LOGICALLY?
I remember as a kid watching the TV show Star Trek, and I really liked certain things about the character Spock. I liked that he was so logical.
Then, when I got to Cal State Chico, I took a class on logic and critical thinking and thoroughly enjoyed it. I remember thinking “Why doesn’t everyone focus on this at a young age and understand the value of it ?!?” Everything was illuminated after that.
At the time I didn’t understand how to make logic a cornerstone of my life. But as we grow older we appreciate the value of those things. So, now it is a cornerstone of my life decisions.
HAS THERE BEEN ANY RELIGION OR PHILOSOPHY THAT HAS BEEN A MORAL COMPASS FOR YOU?
I’m not very religious, but I highly respect other people’s religions the best that I can.
I consider myself a moral person; I am flawed, like everyone else, but I try to be as moral as possible
I do those things because I want to be as good a person as possible for no other reason than that it is important to me.
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“Don’t be in a rush; be thorough in everything that you do”
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IS THERE ANYONE IN WORLD HISTORY, LIVING OR DEAD, THAT YOU’D LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH FOR AN EVENING AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
A guy that I admire, who’s still living at 99 years old, is Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter is an amazing person, and has lived an exemplary life. He is someone who really balanced emotional decisions with logic
I read a book that he wrote about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and things became very clear from reading it
I have a lot of close Jewish friends, and they don’t necessarily embrace his view. In fact, when this book came out, some reviewers called Jimmy Carter “Hitler”. I thought “You’ve got to be kidding!”
I get why they are fighting, and why you are never going to find peace there unless there is a two state solution, and even then there will be bitter feelings.
The elementary way to look at it is how when people came to America, there were native people in the land, and I’m sure that even though we gave them a portion of their own land back, some were still very bitter.
Likewise the history of African Americans in America is not pleasant, in terms of how we got over here. But you can’t focus on it and dwell on those things. Life keeps moving and evolving, and you try to do best with the cards that you’ve been dealt.
You try to make life better and make the people around you better. You try to make good decisions that lead to a better life.
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“the band is a team together. You don’t want to point out the imperfections of someone, but you want the band to sound as good as possible as a unit”
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WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
I originally had short term and long term goals, and as I’ve fulfilled those, I need to reset new goals
Some of the musical goals that I have is a band called Something Else, which is a larger ensemble. It kind of focuses on “soul jazz” a little bit. I’d like to see that project become more popular or successful
For personal goals, I’d like to become a stronger player, find more of a musical personality and continue my musical journey. Of course, we all want financial and life security.
I’m grateful that my children have been able to find those things. I hope to continue to write music, and crank it out; I hope it gets better.
I want to maintain the friendships that are important to me.
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“Life keeps moving and evolving, and you try to do best with the cards that you’ve been dealt”
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Some things that come to mind when you say that…
My son is 32. I remember seeing him fulfill his goals; that gives me so much joy.
The same with my daughter. She’s 26, and just seeing things that are important to her life an watching her dreams come true gives great joy
It’s seeing other people fulfill their dreams and goals, I should be a little more selfish and work out those things for myself
I just finished a tour in Europe with Eric Alexander, Kenny Washington, Alexander Claffy, Jeremy Pelt and Mike LeDonne. What gave me the most joy was playing music with some great friends, and for our band to be successful that we got so many messages on social media on how they enjoyed hearing the band.
We had more than one fan fly around to follow the band. One of my really good friends, Taka Suguta flew all the way from Japan to come over to Europe and celebrate my birthday.
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“(My biggest joy is) seeing other people fulfill their dreams and goals”
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WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I’m still working on it, but hope that they will say that he was a great musician and a great person. They need to mean it!
IT’S ENCOURAGING TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE STILL MUSICIANS OUT THERE WHO ARE IN DEBT TO THEIR PAST INFLUENCES YET NOT HELD DOWN BY THEM. VINCENT HERRING IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO HAS TAKEN THE BATON FROM HIS HEROES AND CARRIES IT FORWARD. THE FINISH LINE LOOKS ENCOURAGING IN HIS HANDS!