IT SEEMS THAT MOST OF THE TIMES ONE ATTENDS A JAZZ CONCERT, IT FEELS MORE LIKE A CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE. JUST SIT DOWN, BE QUIET AND LET THE MUSICIANS DO THEIR THING.
TROMBONIST DELFEAYO MARSALIS WILL HAVE NONE OF THAT.
OH, HE CAN PUT TOGETHER MATERIAL FOR THE MIND AND HEART, SUCH AS HIS CONCEPT ALBUMS THAT RANGE FROM PONTIUS PILATE TO SHAKESPEARE AND EVEN MODERN POLITICS AND CIVIL RIGHTS.
BUT THE HEART OF MARSALIS, HAVING GROWN UP IN NEW ORLEANS, IS TO GET PEOPLE UP ON THEIR FEET AND HAVING A GOOD TIME. ISN’T THAT THE MAIN REASON YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO SOMEONE? WHO WANTS A LECTURE?
HAVING COME TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA A COUPLE TIMES THE PAST YEAR, MARSALIS AND HIS BAND HAVE BROUGHT THE SPIRIT OF NEW ORLEANS TO THE LAID BACK WEST COAST, ABLE TO GET PEOPLE DANCING IN THE AISLES TO MUSIC THAT IS MORE A CELEBRATION THAN CEREBRATION.
WE HAD A CHAT WITH DELFEAYO IN THE CONFINES OF HIS BAND, JUST MOMENTS BEFORE TAKING THE STAGE AND PUTTING A BIT OF NEW ORLEANS FLAVOR INTO SOUTHERN CAL MELLOW.
AS WITH HIS MUSIC, MARSALIS CAME ACROSS AS ENGAGING, THOUGHTFUL AND ENERGETIC.
DID YOU PICK THE TROMBONE, OR DID IT PICK YOU?
The trombone kind of picked me, but if you’re talking about an actual person doing it, it would be me.
It was just one of things; one of those guys came by with the instruments. I tried the electric bass¸ but it hurt my fingers, and my dad wouldn’t allow drums at that point (laughs).
It made sense for me, as Branford was playing saxophone, Wynton was on trumpet, and my dad was playing the piano. The bass didn’t work out, so the trombone was the logical choice.
The instruments suit our personalities.
Wynton is the consummate trumpet player; you have to have a certain mindset for that. Branford is perfect on the saxophone, and you have to have a certain kind of flexibility.
For the trombone, not only do you have to have the most flexibility, but you have to listen in all directions. That’s kind of like my personality; I like doing production, so it’s all hand in hand
********
“For the trombone, not only do you have to have the most flexibility, but you have to listen in all directions. That’s kind of like my personality”
*********
WHAT ADVICE DID YOUR DAD GIVE YOU?
He never really talked about things; he would just play. For example, if my specialty was playing ballads, he’d say “lean ballads”.
If the way they play lent itself more to being a blues kind of player, he would encourage them to learn blues solos and things. IF their propensity was more towards modern music, he would move them into that direction
WAS THERE A PLAYER OR RECORDING THAT YOU HEARD THAT MADE YOU SAY, “YES, THIS IS MY INSTRUMENT”?
Al Grey and Tyree Glenn. Of course, early on I listened to JJ Johnson. That was good for the articulation.
But as far as my actual sound, it’s more resonant and similar to Grey and Glenn. And Tommy Dorsey down an octave! (laughs) He played up there.
AND HE KNEW HOW TO USE HIS BREATH.
I don’t have that part, and would play a 1/126 phrase, which is absurd. He was special; he would consistently play 16-18 second phrases
He had a system worked out differently. If he was playing a melody, he would make it so that the phrases overlapped, so that you wouldn’t play to where the phrase would typically end. He would tie it over a certain way.
YOUR CATALOGUE SEEMS TO HAVE THREE LIVES. YOU HAVE THESE THEMATIC ALBUMS WITH PONTIUS PILATE AND DUKE ELLINGTON AND MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. SO YOUR FIRST ALBUM IS ABOUT PONTIUS PILATE. DID YOU JUST COME OUT OF A SUNDAY SCHOOL CLASS OR SOMETHING?
My mother raised us Catholic, and I remember going to church and hearing the various stories.
It started with Barabbas (editor’s note: the insurrectionist who was the prisoner set free instead of Jesus), who I equated with David Duke, who was running for office at the time.
Even the idea was not a direct parallel, but you have someone like Barrabas, who was really up to no good, yet he was “the people’s choice”. That’s what we felt about David Duke. That’s what started it.
Then, I realized it was the people who helped make it Pontius Pilate’s decision, and so he just washed his hands of the situation. “I didn’t do it; I didn’t know anything about it”
But David Duke was the greatest thing that happened for us in Louisiana, because everyone voted to make sure that he was NOT elected, which was a precursor to Donald Trump.
It started with that, and then I wrote a song similar to “My Funny Valentine”, called “Adam and Eve”, so it kind of fell into place.
*******
“No one has given more as a group for the building up of the country that our African ancestors, the true Americans. Time after time after time”
*******
YOU DID ANOTHER THEMATIC ALBUM WITH MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
Not really knowing how the country would respond to the whole thing, it was an unfortunate set of circumstances.
The cd was supposed to be called Living Free and Running Wild. In June at a gig, we’d be making up songs spontaneously, and we asked the audience what they wanted us to play, and someone said, “Make America Great Again”.
So I set it up to go from Am to Eb with the trumpets doing a vaudeville thing, with the idea that America was great back in the vaudeville times, going forward to something modern.
That’s how the whole idea started.
We recorded it, and I transcribed what we played. We went into the studio and played it, but it didn’t sound right; it wasn’t a complete song.
I realized we needed a narration, so I wrote the thing out. Someone in the band said we should get a white guy to do this narration, (chuckles) so I called Wendell Pierce telling him I needed an actor, a white guy in his 50s that can deliver this.
Wendell said (in deep voice imitation), “Yes, well, let me see who I can get!” And I realized “No one has given more as a group for the building up of the country that our African ancestors, the true Americans. Time after time after time.
Only the American Indians have been shafted more than the black folk. So that became the idea of the narration.
The real irony is the part where he says of the outrage of the hoisting up of the Confederate flag next to our American flag, lo and behold, you have the raid on the Capitol, and they’re bringing in the Confederate flag.
Having said that, I just tried to put the music out; sometimes it has political overtones and sometimes it doesn’t. We just try to make sure that it’s swingin’.”
*********
“I just tried to put the music out; sometimes it has political overtones and sometimes it doesn’t. We just try to make sure that it’s swingin’.”
********
THERE WAS NO POLITICAL MOTIVATION FOR YOUR TRIBUTE TO AMERICA’S GREATEST COMPOSER, DUKE ELLINGTON
I was attending the University of Louisville, trying to get a Masters, and one of the classes was an English class. He said that there must be some relationship between music and literature, and I thought ‘Ah!! Ellington’s Shakespeare Suite”!
So I went to The Smithsonian, and they had Duke’s original scores. After looking at them I thought “most of the harmonies are in the saxophones; I can scale this down for a small group”. It worked, so I thought that I might as well put it out as a cd.
It’s really great material. Strayhorn and Ellington knew how to compose, and we’re still trying to figure out and understand how they got that richness , not only of the harmony, but the melodic content
********
“Strayhorn and Ellington knew how to compose, and we’re still trying to figure out and understand how they got that richness”
*********
YOUR OTHER MUSICAL LIFE IS THAT YOU’VE PLAYED WITH TWO OF THE HARDEST DRIVING DRUMMERS, ART BLAKEY AND ELVIN JONES. HOW DO YOU COMPARE AND CONTRAST THEM, AS A BAND MEMBER?
I didn’t spend a lot of time with Blakey, but he had a great way of forcing you to learn how to develop your own solo. He had the system down
Once the solo started, he’d start you off low, and as he felt that it needed to pick up steam, he’d ***start adding heat. It was like a train that’s behind you on the tracks. You’re walking on them, and you’re looking back, and you think “OK, the trains a little closer” and you look back again, and it’s right on you! That’s how it was with Blakey, man!
When he was ready for you to get off, he’d just put that heat on you. Then he’d hit that cymbal, “Bang” and he’d say “Next”.
It was really a great tradition. And I’m actually trying to work with the younger drummers to get them to understand that tradition, because they now have to take over and you have to know a lot about music to do that
********
“When (Art Blakey) was ready for you to get off, he’d just put that heat on you. Then he’d hit that cymbal, “Bang” and he’d say “Next”
********
HOW DOES ELVIN COMPARE?
Elvin was such a sweet person, and so considerate. He was the youngest of ten, so he understood ***about compromise. He would have given his life for Coltrane; he had that kind of love, respect and reverence for him.
It’s funny; Coltrane was pretty much an only child, and Elvin was the youngest of ten. Coltrane was kind of selfish in a certain way, not in a negative way, but he thought about himself and what he was trying to do, and Elvin was there for support.
How I started with Jones was way different then when I finished. As good as my recording was with him and Branford, Mulgrew Miller and Donald Harrison-as great as those musicians are and sound, it’s very clear that Elvin and I had been playing together, because he’s right on top with me and there’s a certain chemistry there.
It’s like being in a family with somebody; you’re with them all the time. That’s why I love that recording
YOUR THIRD ASPECT IS YOUR LOVE FOR THE NEW ORLEANS TRADITION OF JAZZ
The thing about Pontius Pilate’s Decision is that people don’t realize that I’ve always been a fan of funky music. Most of the Pilate music is backbeat; we were just coming to it from the jazz angle. That first song “Pontius Pilate’s Decision” has that “ba-dunka-dum dum ba-dunka-dum dum” thing; it’s funk based. Same with “Mary Magdalene” –“chung chung chung chung”.
Some people don’t hear it, as it’s more suggested than over stated.
But the music that we’re doing now with Uptown Mardi Gras Day is actually closer to me than what I was doing back then. The fundamental difference is that a lot of the material now is more “New Orleans” with some of my originals. It’s such a great sound
But the other part is that this country is right now in such a strange place that it needs a band doing what we’re doing
*******
“this country is right now in such a strange place that it needs a band doing what we’re doing”
*******
IN WHAT WAY?
First, there’s so much “gloom and doom” all of the time, and we need things that are uplifting. We need things that have some level of introversion, but on the other aspect we need a link to that **Africanism. That’s what people have always loved about what we call “jazz”, just that sense of celebration.
All of the New Orleans music was celebratory. So we’re trying to take it away from the idea that you have to be self-centered and introverted and introspective to play the music. It’s such a great thing to celebrate.
People are always talking about Coltrane and Miles, but these guys were often playing on stages where there was also Duke Ellington, Count Basie and Louis Armstrong. So, there’s always this sharing of ideas
I guarantee you, that if Coltrane heard Louis Armstrong’s band, it’s going to impact him in some kind of way
That’s the idea for us. A lot of the bands out here have a similar approach, and when I hear them I see how they have aspects that can help us and we can utilize. But when they hear us, it’s like “you gotta step it up, man!”
*******
“I guarantee you, that if Coltrane heard Louis Armstrong’s band, it’s going to impact him in some kind of way”
*******
IT’S LIKE KOOL “PAPA” BELL SAYING THAT HE LOVES COUNTRY MUSIC. GET OVER IT!
That’s the great thing about jazz. In it’s best form, everybody can find their place. With other musicians there’s more exclusivity
RAY CHARLES PLAYED EVERYTHING.
So did Fats Domino. I wish I had the chance to play with him back then, but I didn’t understand like I do now
KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE LIKED TO HAVE ASKED RAY CHARLES WHEN YOU PLAYED WITH HIM?
It’s less asking, it’s just playing with him. I would have tapped into his energy in a different kind of way.
I don’t know if he would have had answers to things like “How do you express a ballad?”. There’s no way to really answer that. How do you get to the true meaning of the song? He’d say “You just have to believe it.”
*******
“That’s the great thing about jazz. In it’s best form, everybody can find their place. With other musicians there’s more exclusivity”
*********
HOW ABOUT ABDULLAH IBRAHIM?
His sense of harmony. I never really studied his music, but he’s similar to Kenny Kirkland, and I’m a big fan of Kenny. The both use a lot of that harmony, sharp 5, flat 5.
Playing with him was an inspiration. It was a job that I didn’t understand the significance of at the time, because the horns were not that important in that band. But you have to learn discipline.
He’s got a song called “The Wedding” that’s just killing.
All of those great old musicians, like Slide Hampton, taught me about preparation and how to be on top of the instrument at all times. I’ve been very fortunate to have those experiences.
WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A TROMBONE PLAYER, AND DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE?
My pet peeve with musicians in general is a lack of recognition of the importance of the audience
Some of the musicians kind of play for themselves
I did a Downbeat article and I mentioned that I was teaching at the Hartt School of Music, and I asked the students in the class if they’d prefer to have a song in the Billboard Top Ten or to play something that would be respected by their peers.
Every single one said “Peers”
That is the most absurd idea, but it allows us as “jazz” musicians to frown down on popular music. We that that nothing that we do could ever be accepted, so the thing to do is to say, “Well, the audience are not hip, so we might as well play pop music”
I had a student tell me that, and I said “You’re not preparing yourself to succeed. You can do this. I’m not telling you not to do this, but as a business person, you have to look at the business of what it is”
It’s a fine line of being able to play what you want to play and playing something that the audience is going to appreciate . Fortunately for me, the New Orleans stuff is killing, and the audiences love it.
*******
“How do you get to the true meaning of the song? (Ray Charles would) say “You just have to believe it.”
*******
EVERY SUCCESSFUL PERSON HAS TO DO THINGS THEY DON’T LIKE DOING IN ORDER TO ULTIMATELY DO WHAT THEY WANT.
What I have discovered is that the students that I meet don’t really have faith and belief in that they are going to succeed
You go to these colleges, and ever single college person playing college basketball thinks that they’re going to get into the NBA. 400 places, but that’s the mentality and it’s good.
Even if you don’t make it, you have to have that belief that what you’re doing is worth it and worthy of being heard.
WHAT MUSICIAN, LIVING OR DEAD, WOULD YOU PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
Charlie Parker. That’s what all of the musicians said I had to see. They told me “Of every musician, you have to have seen Charlie Parker”.
Max Roach said it. Elvin might have said John Coltrane, but Blakey always said “Bird”. For that magic to come out of that instrument with that joy of expression and that understanding. They say he had a direct pipeline to the Original Source from which all great music emanates.
********
“My pet peeve with musicians in general is a lack of recognition of the importance of the audience”
*********
WHAT HISTORICAL FIGURE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN FOR AN EVENING?
Martin Luther King or Malcom X
The problem that Malcom had was that he had gone against the system. Martin Luther King was figuring out how to work inside the system; Malcom had gone against the system for so long. But once the Nation of Islam betrayed him, he was in a tough place. He had a tough road.
It’s almost like he had put all of his eggs in one basket
But I’d also love to talk to Socrates. He also went against the grain. That’s what it is.
YOU GREW UP CATHOLIC. WHAT GAVE YOU YOUR MORAL COMPASS?
My mother.
My mother was a staunch feminist, and her reward for that was that having six boys (laughs)
She just never got over it, man. “I’m just stuck with these D&$# men!”. There were only men in her life other than her own mother. She had only brothers, so it wasn’t until she had grandchildren.
And she had a real fiery disposition; she didn’t play around in a certain kind of way.
********
*Even if you don’t make it, you have to have that belief that what you’re doing is worth it and worthy of being heard’
*********
ANY BOOKS YOU’VE READ THAT HAVE DEEPLY INFLUENCED YOU?
The Souls of Black Folks by W.E.B. Dubois. That first chapter has some of the greatest writing in the history of the English language
DUBOIS IS ONE VIEW OF THE BLACK EXPERIENCE, AND YOU HAVE BOOKER T WASHINGTON’S UP FROM SLAVERY AS ANOTHER ASPECT.
Booker T is important also. Coming from New Orleans, I certainly understand Up From Slavery. I certainly understand what he was saying, but we grew up in a different generation.
Branford and Wynton were the first generation to integrate the schools in New Orleans. They were the first generation. We were the second
Coming from that standpoint of view, my mother said, “You have a responsibility to do this”
I look back and kind of regret it in a certain way, but I also see why it was important.
*******
“It’s a fine line of being able to play what you want to play and playing something that the audience is going to appreciate . Fortunately for me, the New Orleans stuff is killing, and the audiences love it”
********
THERE ARE CERTAIN TIMES OF PIONEERS
Another guy like that is King Oliver. He came up right after slavery, so he came up from the South in a certain kind of way, but he had a certain kind of disposition. He was always optimistic about what was going on.
EVERYONE YOU’VE MENTIONED IS, LIKE YOU, OPTIMISTIC, WHICH THESE DAYS GOES AGAINST THE GRAIN.
You have to be optimistic, otherwise you can get consumed with the nonsense
WHAT GIVES YOU THE BIGGEST JOY?
When my knees don’t hurt (laughs)
*******
“What I have discovered is that the students that I meet don’t really have faith and belief in that they are going to succeed”
********
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE WHEN YOU’RE SIX FEET UNDER?
It doesn’t matter; I won’t be around to hear it. (laughs) That’s what my dad said.
WHAT’S YOUR NEXT PROJECT?
I have a couple things I’m working on.
I wrote some music during the pandemic that pays tribute to Fauci, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Breonna Taylor. I have that material, and another one called “The Old Rusty Shovel” from the “Family Heirloom Suite”. Different kind of tales.
I like the programmatic music. I like music that has some kind of a back story.
THERE’S SOMETHING ABOUT TROMBONE PLAYERS AND ARRANGING
We make great arrangers and producers. Quincy Jones was kind of an oddity, because he played trumpet.
I think it’s because we hear the whole story.
********
“You have to be optimistic, otherwise you can get consumed with the nonsense”
********
IN THIS PRESENT SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND MUSICAL ENVIRONMENT, IT’S ENCOURAGING TO HEAR AN OPTIMISTIC VOICE AMONG THE CACOPHONY. OH, DELFEAYO MARSALIS’ MUSIC IS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT THE MESSAGE IS A NEGATIVE ONE. BEING POSITIVE IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS, AND MARSALIS HAS BRIDGED THE GAP BETWEEN MAKING A MUSICAL MESSAGE NEEDING TO BE HEARD, AND WRAPPING IT IN A PACKAGE THAT CAN BE ABSORBED AND APPRECIATED. ALL OF THE BEST PROPHETS KNOW THEIR AUDIENCE, AND FOR THOSE WITH EARS TO HEAR, CHECK OUT DELFEAYO’S POSITIVE PREACING FROM THE TROMBONE.