WITH THE RECENT DEATH OF AHMAD JAMAL, IT SUDDENLY COMES TO ONE’S ATTENTION THAT A CERTAIN STYLE OF PIANO PLAYING IS SLOWLY BEING LOST THROUGH ATTRITION. MANY ARE THE PIANISTS WHO TRY TO IMPRESS BY A MYRIAD OF NOTES, A CHATTERBOX OF IVORIES, BOTH LYRICAL OR DISSONANT. AS MY OWN TEACHER ONCE TOLD ME, MOST MUSICIANS ARE LIKE BEAUTIFUL WOMEN WHO SIMPLY CAN’T STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW BEAUTIFUL THEY ARE.
YET, THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO PLAY EACH NOTE AS IF IT HAD FEELINGS OF ITS OWN.
LES MCCANN, AT 88 IS ONE OF THE LAST LIVING ARTISTS WHO PUT NOT ONLY THE CHURCH, BUT THE STREET PREACHER BACK IN JAZZ WITH HIS CATALOGUE OF ALBUMS, MOST NOTABLY HIS CLASSIC TEAMING WITH EDDIE HARRIS ON ‘COMPARED TO WHAT?’.
AND WHILE MANY PIANISTS OF SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS HAVE FOLLOWED THE TRAIL OF ‘MORE IS MORE,’ JOE ALTERMAN HAS TAKEN THE TORCH HANDED TO HIM BY MCCANN AND CREATED AN IMPRESSIVE COLLECTIONS OF ALBUMS OF HIS OWN, MOST NOTABLY HIS LATEST BIG MO AND LITTLE JOE, WHICH IS A TRIBUTE TO THE LEGENDARY PIANIST THAT IS NOT ONLY HIS MENTOR, BUT HAS BECOME HIS CLOSE FRIEND.
WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHAT WITH BOTH GENTS, AND AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, THE TIME WAS SWINGIN’!
I’VE HEARD A LOT OF YOUR ALBUMS LIKE GEORGIA SUNSET AND THE SIMPLE LIFE, ALL THAT EMPHASIZE A DEBT TO LES MCCANN. DID YOU PURSUE HIM? OR DID HE FIND YOU?
JOE: For me growing up, Les was my favorite, and he still is.
I was in a jazz program in college, often being told things what not to do on the piano. But Les was doing all of them, and sounding so good; he was like a savior to me back then. He was being himself, and I was being told not to do a lot. So, him being himself gave me confidence to by myself.
So, I wanted to get to know him. Luckily , I got to open for him at The Blue Note in New York, which is where we befriended each other
At first, we talked a lot about piano and stuff like that. But we really just recognized that we both have so much in common and love talking to each other and have become best buddies.
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“I was in a jazz program in college, often being told things what not to do on the piano. But Les was doing all of them, and sounding so good; he was like a savior to me back then”
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WHAT DID PEOPLE TELL YOU DO STOP DOING?
JOE: There would be a group of chord changes, and they’d say “you just played a blues note over that chord; you shouldn’t do that”
LES: The exact same thing happened to me when I went to City College. The teacher would come over to me and say “No, no, no, no!”.
I’d ask him “What do you mean?” This is what I hear.
Then, the other people in the class would come up to me and say “That’s all right!”
But, he kicked me out of the class for doing that.
That’s how you know you’re going to be great, because you’re not like everybody else. You can’t keep being told what you should be doing.
Music and creativity is about love, and being who you are
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“Music and creativity is about love, and being who you are”
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LES, WHAT INITIALLY INSPIRED YOU? THE CHURCH? ANOTHER MUSICIAN?
LES: Life can be an inspiration, not just one thing.
When I grew up (and I’m sure Joe feels the same way), everything I had and experienced makes up what we are. It’s not just one thing; It’s not just about the intellect; it’s not just about one thing you do; it’s how you accept who you are. No matter what that is.
JOE: Les will often say “This is my story; this is my movie”
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“everything I had and experienced makes up what we are. It’s not just one thing; It’s not just about the intellect; it’s not just about one thing you do; it’s how you accept who you are”
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YOUR TOUCH HAS LES MCCANN’S FEEL. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO PICK UP ON SOMEONE ELSE’S “STORY” AND STILL MAKE IT YOUR OWN?
LES: It cannot be taught. It can be copied and acted, but it cannot be taught.
That goes for everyone; people have talents that they don’t even know that they have because they are doing what someone else said they ought to be doing.
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“That’s how you know you’re going to be great, because you’re not like everybody else. You can’t keep being told what you should be doing”
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JOE: When I was younger and first being exposed to Les’ music, I could barely play the piano.
I remember that there was something really personal in his music. I remember thinking “If I practice a lot I just might kind of sound like that”. I really resonated with his sound. Then we met, and we resonated personally.
It’s all about the life experience.
I remember right when I met Les, he asked “How much do you practice?”
I said, while bragging a bit “About 6 hours a day”
He said “Way too much!”
I asked why, and he said, “You have to have something to live about; you have to go out and live so you can have something to sing about when you get on your instrument!”
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“This is my story; this is my movie”
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LES, WHAT DID YIY SEE IN JOE THAT MADE YOU WANT TO INVEST TIME IN HIM?
LES: I saw in Joe what I see in everyone I have fallen in love with 812. It was the love that was in him; I saw it when I met him. It wasn’t something that was broken down into pieces; it was the whole package.
Sometimes we can recognize it in others and can see it; other times we go around trying to figure out what we forgot.
Creativity is based on the heart. You can’t explain your own heart; you come with your own package and gifts. It’s not about other people; it’s about who you are deeply.
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“(Les) asked me “How much do you practice?”
I said, while bragging a bit “About 6 hours a day”
He said “Way too much!”
I asked why, and he said, “You have to have something to live about; you have to go out and live so you can have something to sing about when you get on your instrument!”
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SO, DID YOU DO ANYTHING, JOE, TO WORK ON YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCE SO THAT IT COULD EFFECT YOUR PIANO PLAYING?
JOE: Since meeting Les, I’ve tried more to be present, in the moment, and to let that soak into everything that I do. Not just at the piano, but when I’m at the park, or at the park or see a bird, thinking “how can this inspire me later?” Being “present” is very helpful.
Knowing Les has been one of the greatest blessings in my life. I’ve learned so much and am very thankful.
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“it doesn’t matter what kind of music it is; it’s about the love that you have and how you express it”
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WHY IS YOUR STYLE OF PIANO PLAYING SUCH A MAGNET FOR TENOR SAX PLAYERS? BOTH OF YOU HAVE HAD YOUR SHARE OF PARTNERS, IN EDDIE HARRIS, STANLEY TURRENTINE AND HOUSTON PERSON? IT’S LIKE A SANDWICH OF PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY.
LES: You forgot the banana. (laughs) I eat one of them everyday.
It’s not something that you play with your hands; it’s what you play with your heart. What we’re doing is what we feel inside. You just have to allow each moment to be what it is. Only you can describe yourself.
If you play the saxophone, don’t try to play like anybody else. Get together with yourself and be honest with yourself. Love yourself above all else, and tell everyone else to go sit in the truck. (laughs)
JOE: I just love the sound of a nice tenor sax player
I grew up loving the recordings of Les with Stanley Turrentine; I loved the way that he played behind him
For me, playing with Houston is so special to be behind that and feel it, filling in some of the spaces. For me, it’s just that I love the sound of certain saxophone players.
LES: One of the great things about that unbelievably spiritual instrument called the piano is that it can do anything and work with anybody. As long as the right guys are around, it doesn’t matter what kind of music it is; it’s about the love that you have and how you express it.
I’ve played with violin players, saxophone players, trumpets; I’ve had one flute player and one whistler. It’s about allowing and not planning, about what you’re doing. Just be what you feel inside.
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“Creativity is based on the heart… It’s not about other people; it’s about who you are deeply”
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HAVE EITHER OF YOU EVER PLAYED YOUR MUSIC IN A CHURCH OR GOSPEL SETTING?
JOE: I’ve played it in my synagogue before. (laughs) I’ve done a lot of concerts at my synagogue actually. Not part of services, but they have a cultural arts series that I usually play at every year or two. Attendees to the series are typically members of the congregation, and I often do tributes to Les, Ramsey, Oscar Peterson and others there, speaking both about both the resonance I feel to their music, and gospel music/feel in general, and giving examples of Jewish prayers that I grew up with that I feel have some blues in it and could explain that deep resonance I feel. Both Les and Ramsey, knowing how my feelings towards the gospel feel and music, encouraged me to take Jewish songs that I grew up with and put my gospel-influenced spin on those. Here’s an example of one of those:
I’ve noticed a phenomenon with a lot of Jewish jazz musicians, myself being included.
I remember going to my bar mitzvah and doing everything; it was a special experience. But during the experience, I really didn’t know what I was talking about that day.
But then, I came home, and put on my Les McCann and Oscar Peterson records, and I felt like they were talking to me on the record. I felt like that was my real Bar Mitzvah. I grew up resonating with this gospel sound. I don’t know what it is, but there is something to it.
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“If you play the saxophone, don’t try to play like anybody else. Get together with yourself and be honest with yourself”
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LES: It is love.
JOE: Yes; it makes me smile. It makes me feel connected. It’s special. It reminds me of a great Ornette Coleman quote about the time he heard Cantor Joseph Rosenblatt’s music: “I was once in Chicago, about 20-some years ago. A young man said, ‘I’d like you to come by so I can play something for you.’ I went down to his basement and he put on Josef Rosenblatt, and I started crying like a baby. The record he had was crying, singing and praying, all in the same breath. I said, wait a minute. You can’t find those notes. Those are not ‘notes.’ They don’t exist.”
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“The record he had was crying, singing and praying, all in the same breath. I said, ‘wait a minute. You can’t find those notes. Those are not ‘notes.’ They don’t exist.’”
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LES: When you talk about being Jewish or black gospel music, that’s separating. Joe and I are one.
We’re not a little bit of this and that-we are exactly the same with each other
That passion in that music is the essence of God in everything. Music is about what’s right now.; it has nothing to do with the past.
We all have to go through experiences, so if you try to copy someone exactly, no one’s going to remember you.
JOE: The only thing I would add is that if you look at the Jewish songs and gospel songs, on sheet music, if you play it exactly as written, it won’t sound good; you have to have the feeling
LES: It doesn’t work on paper. It doesn’t even work on the record; you just hope that sometimes on a recording you get the essence of it. You’re not going to get the same thing unless you’re sitting right next to me.
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“It’s not something that you play with your hands; it’s what you play with your heart”
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JOE, HAVE YOU TRIED SINGING, LIKE LES HAS DONE ON HIS ALBUMS?
JOE: That is next. At some of my gigs I’ve done it. I want to make an album wth vocals.
My favorite vocalist is (pianist) Jimmy Rowles. I don’t know if you ever heard him sing. I love his piano playing, but I’m really inspired by his voice
There’s a quote on one of Jimmy Rowles’ albums that says “Jimmy Rowles sings like Nat “King” Cole if Cole had a bad case of laryngitis”. I like that quote-you still want to hear me sing? (laughs)
WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO SING, LES?
LES: In the bathroom! (laughs)
WHEN YOU TWO LISTEN TO PIANO PLAYERS, WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR, AND DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE?
LES: It’s very simple…I see if I like it.
It’s not about doing this or doing that; all the guys can play. The thing is if you hear it, you know it.
JOE: It’s hard for me to look for anything specific; I just take it in and see if I like it, if it makes me smile and feel good.
IS THERE ANY MUSICIAN THAT YOU WISH YOU HAD SEEN PLAY THAT YOU MISSED?
JOE; Honestly, there are just so many. I wish I could have seen Oscar Peterson and Ahmad Jamal. Just hang out at the London House in Chicago for a few weeks
LES: Don’t do that Joe; don’t go backwards, go forward.
The past is what it was; it’s gone.
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“It doesn’t work on paper. It doesn’t even work on the record; you just hope that sometimes on a recording you get the essence of it. You’re not going to get the same thing unless you’re sitting right next to me”
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HOW DID YOU GET THAT ATTITUDE INSTILLED INTO YOU, LES?
LES: People just forget that they are that way.
Once you learn to go inside yourself and take it all the way, there isn’t anything you can’t do.
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“We all have to go through experiences, so if you try to copy someone exactly, no one’s going to remember you”
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WAS THERE A TEACHER THAT INSPIRED YOU TO BE THAT WAY?
Many. You do what you’ve been told to do, and you look for ways to move on.
There are great teachers out there, and I know what I like to hear, but when you sit down and check it out, all musicians are great. IT’s not something that you can teach; it’s already in you when you’re born.
One man told me” Until you the door to my heart, and learn to love yourself I can’t teach you anything”.
JOE: One thing that brought Les and I closer together, as we talk about this spiritual journey…
I was talking to Les that I had an experience 3 months before I met Les.
I was playing at the Blue Note, and Ahmad Jamal was playing in the front row.. I was scared to death; I had no idea how to approach that situation!
I remember sharing that with Les, and he shared a similar story with me…
He was doing his first gig at The London House in Chicago, and as he was about to walk on stage, in walked Oscar Peterson. Similar to me, he got nervous
He went over to Oscar’s table and said “I love you, but I cannot play in front of you”
Oscar said ‘I didn’t come to hear me, I came to hear you”
That was life changing advice that made it feel ok to him to him from now on.
LES: It broke down the door that I was holding on to with all the fear inside.
It’s the worst thing we deal with.
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“One man told me” Until you open the door to my heart…. I can’t teach you anything”.
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MY TEACHER KEEPS TELLING ME “THERE ALREADY WAS ONE LESTER YOUNG”
JOE: Same with me, Ahmad told me that he came to see me, so there’s nothing to worry about.
LES: We all have many teachers, but you need to know when to move on.
IS THERE ANYONE IN WORLD HISTORY THAT YOU’D LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH AND PICK THEIR BRAIN FOR AN EVENING?
LES: I don’t want to know their brain; I want to feel their heart. What do they feel, and why they do what they do?
WHAT GIVES YOU TO THE MOST JOY?
JOE :Especially after the past couple of years doing virtual concerts, it’s a real pleasure to play in front of real live people. There’s nothing like that.
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“We all have many teachers, but you need to know when to move on”
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WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
JOE: We want to do the Big Mo and Little Joe Show. We’ve got to get on stage somewhere.
LES; Two grand pianos, a couch, an nice drink on the side. We sit, we play, we talk and open up to the people who come to see us.
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“Oscar (Peterson) said ‘I didn’t come to hear me, I came to hear you”
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IT’S EASY TO SEE WHY JOE ALTERMAN IS INSPIRED BY LES MCCANN FOR NOT ONLY HIS MUSIC, BUT FOR HIS HEART. YET, JOE’S MUSIC IS NOT A COPY OF HIS MENTOR, THAT WOULD NOT PLEASE HIS TEACHER AND BEST FRIEND. LES HAS HELPED JOE BECOME THE BEST JOE ALTERMAN THAT HE CAN BE, WHICH IS WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR.