ONE OF THE MOST RELIABLE OF THE PRESENT GENERATION OF HARD BOP DRUMMERS, JOE FARNSWORTH HAS RECENTLY RELEASED HIS OWN ALBUM AS A LEADER, IN WHAT DIRECTION ARE YOU HEADED.
WHILE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH “OLD SCHOOL” ARTISTS LIKE PHAROAH SANDERS, HAROLD MABERN AND HIS DAYS WITH JUNIOR COOK, FARNSWORTH THIS TIME AROUND DECIDED TO HANG WITH HIS OWN GENERATION AND A BIT YOUNGER, BRINGING IN GUITAR ICON KURT ROSENWINKEL AND ALTO SAXIST IMMANUEL WILKINS TO ADD EXTRA COLOR, FLAVOR AND IDEAS.
BUT TO FARNSWORTH, THE MUSIC ITSELF IS JUST A PART OF THE WHOLE.
AS HE EXPLAINS IN THIS INTERVIEW, IT’S THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS THAT HE’S DEVELOPED WITH HIS FELLOW MUSICIANS OVER THE YEARS HAVE BEEN THE HIGHLIGHTS OF HIS HIMPRESSIVE CAREER. NOT ONLY WITH HIS FELLOW MAN, BUT WITH HIS GOD.
FARNSWORTH WAS GENEROUS ENOUGH TO SHARE SOME TIME WITH US TO LET US INTO HIS MUSICAL AND PERSONAL WORLDVIEW.
YOU SOUND A LOT OLDER THAN YOU ARE
Yes, I do.
YOU PLAY WITH A SWING FEEL THAT SEEMS LOST TO TODAY’S GENERATION, WHICH SEEMS TO PLAY “BUSIER” (FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD) THAN BEFORE. WHY ARE THERE THESE TWO DIVERGENT STYLES THESE DAYS?
I notice it.
But, I can only tell you about myself.
In the 80s, I came to New York.
The gigs that everybody wanted, Johnny Griffin, Benny Golson, Tommy Flanagan, Cedar Walton, Milt Jackson, George Coleman…these were all gigs that you could make your living off of being associated with that one person. You didn’t have to go from group to group to group; you could be affiliated with that one person.
To play with those people, you had to have a certain thing, they wanted a certain feel. You didn’t have to play exactly like somebody, but there were certain things that you had to do.
If you wanted to play with Griffin or Golson, you have to make it feel good; you couldn’t really play busy, and you had to play strong with a swing. To those guys the ride cymbal meant everything to them. That’s why Billy Higgins worked so much.
Then, you had guys that were alive that were doing that and kicking ass. Jimmy Cobb, Billy Higgins, Art Blakey. They were alive, they were present and you saw them; they set the standard.
These guys are done; they left a void, so what do you do now? So, it seems like the last ten years the younger people growing up like the Elvin Joneses, Connie Kay, Art Taylors and Barry Harris are gone. So, instead of there being such a strong place and resource to get your information, now you’re getting your information from everywhere, which is great, too.
It’s just a sign of the times. It doesn’t make it worse or better; it’s just what it is, now.
And so, it’s like “I’m going to take some hip-hop, I’m going to take some funk, some rock and roll; I’m going to play everything because that’s what I’m hearing and what I’m seeing.” So now you have more of a wide variety in drummers.
Then, there’s also the gospel thing in the church, and they’re fusing it all into a new style of music. It’s a new way of playing now.
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“To play with those people, you had to have a certain thing, they wanted a certain feel. You didn’t have to play exactly like somebody, but there were certain things that you had to do”
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WHEN YOU SAW DRUMMERS LIKE JAKE HANNA OR ROY HAYNES, YOU REALIZE THAT THIS BREED THAT NEVER HEARD OR PLAYED ANYTHING BUT SWING AND BOP HAS ESSENTIALLY PASSED.
There’s always people that still clamor for it and love it. But there were drummers back then like the MJQ that played classical and jazz, and Eric Buell is doing both. so there’s always something new. Some people get a mainstream In their ear, and something new throws them off. Well, readjust!!
There are those who say, “there’s Art Blakey, Elvin Jones and Roy Haynes. That’s all there is and that’s that. You can’t mess with it. Those guys like Flanagan and Walton are all gone, and people wonder what Is the standard? What are the guidelines? There aren’t any anymore.
HAVING SAID THAT, WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST THING THAT YOU LEARNED FROM YOUR TIME WITH ART TAYLOR?
The first thing he said to me was “If you’re not on time, you can’t play on time”. He learned that from Dexter Gordon. Timing is everything.
The main thing that I learned from him was how to care for the community of drummers, and being a part of the fellowship of musicians. How much he cared about Bud Powell.
He and his buddies used to go to Charlie Parker’s house , carry Charlie Parker’s horn to the gig. They were too young to go into the gig, so they’d just wait and walk him back home. He loved it. That meant the world to me.
For my first two lessons, all he did was play Sarah Vaughan!
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“For my first two lessons, all (Art Taylor) did was play Sarah Vaughan!”
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I was just a drumhead; I wanted to get on his drums and do drum things. But he sat me down and got me to listen to Sarah, and he’d talk to me about being a member of the community.
He cared for other drummers. He loved Philly Joe Jones. One time Philly Joe went up to him after playing and said “A.T., I love you, but your playing makes me physically sick”. That’s not being done today; you’d probably get arrested.
He told him “Meet me at Minton’s tomorrow”. Philly Joe played piano, A.T. played drums and they did duos for two hours. With Philly playing piano, they traded eights, fours and twos, and A.T. said that he never rushed after that again.
There was a comradery. It was competition without animosity.
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“If you wanted to play with Griffin or Golson, you have to make it feel good; you couldn’t really play busy, and you had to play strong with a swing. To those guys the ride cymbal meant everything to them. That’s why Billy Higgins worked so much”
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WHAT WAS TAYLOR TRYING TO CONVEY TO YOU BY PLAYING SARAH VAUGHAN.
How to work on yourself as a person. It goes beyond drums.
Even though A.T. was a drummer, he was A. T. even when he wasn’t on the drums. The drums were just an extension of his personality, his soul. It wasn’t all about playing drums; it was about loving others, loving yourself and knowing who you are so you can become the best person you can be.
I didn’t really catch it right then, but I get it now.
When he walked into a room, everyone got quieter, sat up straighter, the conversation got a little bit smarter. He was cooking way off of the bandstand. The drums were just drums.
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“The first thing he said to me was “If you’re not on time, you can’t play on time”. He learned that from Dexter Gordon. Timing is everything”
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WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM ALAN DAWSON?
It was a straight lesson. It’s all about sounds, and how to get a good stroke.
He wouldn’t tell you how to play or what to play. There was nothing personal, it was business. Just like the Godfather! (laughs)
It was like “Here’s what we’re going to do; here’s the rudiment. Get that full stroke, and you’re going to get a good sound. Slow down. Each stroke means something.”
He was the kindest and most patient guy. He didn’t take your lack of practicing personally; he didn’t take your playing great personally. He was just there as a fountain of knowledge of what he had learned.
When I think about it, I wished that I could teach like that. I take it to personally. When I’m with an 8 year old kid, I’m asking him “What is going to happen when you’re at the Village Vanguard and Max Roach is there?” and the kid says, “I just want to learn a paradiddle’” (laughs)
So what I learned from Alan Dawson, and Billy Higgins too, is that when they play the drums, they are playing themselves, but they’re also bringing the whole family of drums into their playing.
So, when that stroke comes down, it’s a Joe Farnsworth stroke; it’s mine. But it also comes with some Alan Dawson and Billy Higgins; you bring the family of drums with you.
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“The main thing that I learned from (Art Taylor) was how to care for the community of drummers, and being a part of the fellowship of musicians. How much he cared about Bud Powell”
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WHEN YOU WERE FIRST PLAYING WITH GUYS LIKE BIG JOHN PATTEN OR JUNIOR COOK. DID YOU EVER FEEL ONE GIG BEING A “BAPTISM BY FIRE”?
I was able to get the Friday and Saturday night gig at Augie’s, which is the club that Smoke is now. Jessie Davis quit playing Fridays and Saturdays.. They used to have a great group there for two years; all of the youngsters would go there and play. He quit and gave it to me.
So I’d be there with all my friends and brothers we just graduated from school, and we’d go up there and play. Just playing tunes. There would be twelve of us up there, but we needed a direction. We needed a leader.
I tried a couple of guys, but it didn’t work. I was playing jam sessions with (trumpeter) Bill Hardman , became familiar with his band. He was part of one of the last great bebop groups, the Junior Cook/ Bill Hardman quintet, with LeRoy Williams on drums, Walter Bishop or Mickey Tucker on piano and Paul Brown on bass.
I was a massive fan of Junior Cook and LeRoy Williams, so Hardman got me closer to Cook.
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“There was a comradery. It was competition without animosity”
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I went down to Sweet Basil’s to see one of my all time favorite groups, the Nat Adderley Group with Jimmy Cobb and Larry Willis, and the special guest was Junior Cook. Everything kind of led me to that moment, and I knew that I wanted to play with.
I asked him and was with him for a year. It was the last year of his life.
It wasn’t a “Baptism By Fire”, but it was a Baptism for sure.
That was the first time that I was able to be involved with greatness as a player. He made all of us feel like we belonged.
That was a gift of LeRoy Williams, too.
Before that, you had the Roy Haynes, Junior Cook, LeRoy Williams-that was like the major leagues . We were like AA ball. There was a big separation. We never thought of joining the majors, we just played and had fun.
That group particularly was the bridge that was able to take us there to the majors. Junior was the one who baptized me.
Through him I met Cecil Payne, John Ore (the bass player for Monk). That’s when guys like Art Taylor started coming to the club, Donald Byrd and Roland Alexander. Guys who would never have stepped foot in there before. But they knew that Junior was there, so that was the place that they’d go
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When (Art Taylor) walked into a room, everyone got quieter, sat up straighter, the conversation got a little bit smarter. He was cooking way off of the bandstand. The drums were just drums
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He was the first person that I could see that was a human being outside of the records. It was like “Holy Cow! Junior Cook! Horace Silver! Blue Mitchell! “ But then, you’d hang out with them, and you’d realize that he was a human being just like I am.
It may sound stupid, but that was a big lesson for me. I learned it also from Art Taylor. AT’s Delight, Giant Steps, The Red Garland Trio… the best swinging records of all time. Then, you get there, and that was the real lesson they taught me; these guys are human beings, first of all. He’s a father, and he’s got this and that problem, with all kinds of social feelings
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“He cared for other drummers. He loved Philly Joe Jones. One time Philly Joe went up to him after playing and said “A.T., I love you, but your playing makes me physically sick”. That’s not being done today; you’d probably get arrested”
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SPEAKING OF RELATIONSHIPS, YOU HAD A LONG ONE WITH NAT REEVES AND HAROLD MABERN WHEN YOU WERE WITH ERIC ALEXANDER
There were more groups back then. There are some now, but there were a lot more then
I went to school in William Paterson College, where Mabern was.,
He was a giant, full of energy. He was one of those guys that whatever he said, you believed, as there was no nonsense
This was in 1986. There were two schools I wanted to go to; one was The School of Cedar Walton and one was The School of George Coleman. I ended up going to both of them. It helped that Billy Higgins was playing with both! I knew that I wanted to be around those two people.
I didn’t know if I was going to play with them; I just wanted to be around those two groups.
Harold was the piano player for George Coleman, and was a teacher at my school. The next year Eric Alexander came, and Harold loved Eric, because he was like “the new George Coleman” with his sound.
After we graduated, Eric and I just showed up for every time George Coleman and Harold Mabern played and watched them. We wanted to play what they played; even if we were playing a $10 gig at an Irish bar, we’d play what they’d play. (laughs)
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“That group particularly was the bridge that was able to take us there to the majors. Junior (Cook)was the one who baptized me”
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Neve did we think our careers would intertwine.
But Eric and I started getting some gigs, and Eric said “Let’s call Harold!”
He said “yes”, and he was very, very loyal to us.
He made it a priority to play with George, and then ended up playing with me and Eric.
Eric responded to that loyalty, and every record that he made, he’d have us on it, with either Nat Reeves or John Webber on bass. We got a lot of gigs, especially in Japan. Harold just made it a point that he’d make those gigs
When you played with Harold, it was like there was no one else you wanted. His sound was unbelievable. The comping was great.
And he knew every tune! He always said that he wanted to call the Guinness World Book of Records to come, and he figured that he could stay up and play tune after tune for three days.
I asked him “You wouldn’t got to sleep at all?” and he said “Boy, I know how to rest. There’s a difference between resting and sleeping, I can close my eyes, and it looks like I’m sleeping, but I’m still just resting when I’m playing. “
He said he had three days worth of tunes to play, and I believe him.
He would put up on the wall of William Paterson College, a tune list from The Jackie Gleason Orchestra’s radio show, and he’d ask us “How many of these songs do you guys know?”
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“So, when that stroke comes down, it’s a Joe Farnsworth stroke; it’s mine. But it also comes with some Alan Dawson and Billy Higgins; you bring the family of drums with you”
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Of course there were tunes that you never knew of. But he knew them all; he was a leader
He traveled with us, played with us and somehow put up with us. We were in our early 20s, so I’m sure he was not used to working with knuckleheads like us. He put up with us and set us straight.
The lessons he taught us; maybe we didn’t learn them then, but we sure know them now
The BIG one, for me..
He was doing this Phineas Newborn thing with triplets. I saw him do it with George Coleman. Billy Higgins would do it with his left hand and they’d do it together for a whole chorus. The place would go crazy with the momentum and tension.
He did it with Eric, and I thought I’d try it, thinking “I’ve got this thing.’ But I was too heavy handed. So he stopped us and said, “Man, don’t play with me; play for me”.
That’s the big thing they’d do back then, play for you, and not with you. Billy Higgins and Connie Kay; they played for you
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“Slow down. Each stroke means something”
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CONTINUING WITH RELATIONSHIPS, MANY PEOPLE DON’T APPRECIATE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DRUMMER AND BASSIST. WHAT DO YOU L OOK FOR IN A BASSIST, AND WHAT IS YOUR PET PEEVE?
I don’t know if I can tell you what I specifically look for, but I can tell you the things I really like about bassists…
The people I really like, first and foremost, are Bob Cranshaw, Ron Carter, Peter Washington, John Webber, Nat Reeves, Gerald Gannon; these are people that have a great sense of time, where they respect the quarter note.
Elvin Jones told Joe Cannon that “you’ve got to respect the length of the quarter note”. That is what these guys do; they make it so it is big, they make the beat wider.
When I used to play with Bob Cranshaw, and things would get exciting, I could feel myself speeding up. But he was like a rock back there, and I would tell myself, “Just slow down” and I’d take a breath.
Guys like Ron Carter have a way of playing that is articulated pointedly on the beat, but it just rings; the second beat is going to come just a little bit later than you think.
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“when they play the drums, they are playing themselves, but they’re also bringing the whole family of drums into their playing”
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WHEN YOU WATCH A BAND, WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR
For a bass player, they’ve just got to be able to play the quarter notes.
Then there’s the sound; when you hear a guy like Percy Heath, that bottom sounds like a bass, not a cello.
Recently, I was playing with Brad Mehldau at the Village Vanguard, and Christian McBride was playing. He’s Christian McBride for a reason. This was the first time I played with him, and I was just shocked at how good he was. I hear bass players try to play like him, but I just couldn’t believe what he was doing.
He was playing quarter notes, with everyone sounding like the blues, but then he could just rip out anything he wanted to. Everything was in tune; you just trusted his time.
When you can trust a bass player’s time, where it’s not driving or resting, what a relief that is.
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the real lesson they taught me; these guys are human beings, first of all
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YOUR LATEST ALBUM HAS A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF GUYS THAT YOU USUALLY ASSOCIATE WITH, WITH KURT ROSENWINKEL AND IMMMANUEL WILKINS. WAS THERE A DIFFERENT FEEL?
No. The only thing that was different was with Kurt. He opened up a new kind of way to look at things for me. I was used to hearing Barry Harris, Benny Golson, George Coleman and those guys, and I had never heard Kurt play before. Not on record, nothing.
When I played with him, his tunes, time signatures and sounds and ability to float through all of this stuff with such ease, I just thought “Oh, MAN!” It felt like I had blinders on, and he took them off of me.
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And (Harold Mabern) knew every tune! He always said that he wanted to call the Guinness World Book of Records to come, and he figured that he could stay up and play tune after tune for three days
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WAS THERE ANY ADAPTING TO WILKINS’ STYLE OF SAX PLAYING?
He’s a great player, but playing with George Coleman’s harmonic stuff and 15 years with Pharoah Sanders, and Jackie McLean, nothing is going to shock me.
It’s weird; I couldn’t tell you what George, Jackie and Pharoah were doing, but I can hear every note that they were playing. I can’t tell you what it is, but I can follow it.
Then, there are certain people that I can’t hear ANYTHING that they’re playing. I can’t tell you why that is.
But, I can follow Pharoah Sanders into Neptune, the farthest away planet. I can hear what he’s doing, and I can feel it.
I don’t know how George Coleman connected the dots, and how he did the changes. I’d never heard anything like that; it gives you goose bumps when he’s doing it.
With Immanuel, it was being with a person who was playing changes, but navigating it n a great way.
I felt like his openness fit well with Kurt.
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“Elvin Jones told Joe Cannon that “you’ve got to respect the length of the quarter note”. That is what these guys do; they make it so it is big, they make the beat wider”
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IS THERE ANY MUSICIAN, LIVING OR DEAD, THAT YOU’D PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
Kenny Clarke would be the one for me. He’s the king; he had the sound.
I would bug Junior Cook all the time, asking “What can I do to play better?”
He would always wear sunglasses. We were at this gig in Brooklyn, he finally took off his glasses. On the jukebox, Miles Davis’ “Walkin’” came on, with Percy Heath and Kenny Clarke. Cook said, “Just make the ride cymbal feel like that; that’s all I want. That’s all anybody wants.” He then put his glasses back on.
That cymbal sure sounded good.
There’s a record of Lester Young, just before he died, with Kenny Clarke in Paris. That sound is like angels playing.
If I got greedy, maybe Philly Joe Jones would come and sit in on the set.
I met a friend of Clarke’s, Charles Bellonzi in Paris. He and Clarke played back to back in Birdland. In Paris He was there to see Kenny Clarke with Bud Powell. They’d each play 40 minutes sets for two years. Can you imagine that?
He has Kenny Clarke’s cymbal. I played it; sometimes they say “the person plays the cymbal”, but this cymbal sounded really good!
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“Guys like Ron Carter have a way of playing that is articulated pointedly on the beat, but it just rings; the second beat is going to come just a little bit later than you think”
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ANYONE IN WORLD HISTORY, LIVING OR DEAD, YOU’D LOVE TO SPEND AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Jesus Christ.
WHY?
He saved my life.
I was lost; He was the Good Shepherd and He found me.
HOW OLD WERE YOU?
From 0-45 I was lost. He found me, saved me and turned me around.
He showed me how to start a new life, how to get out of a life of being selfish. It’s that self-will; He showed me that there was another way. Ten years ago I changed.
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When I played with (Kurt Rosenwinkel), his tunes, time signatures and sounds and ability to float through all of this stuff with such ease, I just thought “Oh, MAN!” I t felt like I had blinders on, and he took them off of me
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WAS THERE A VERSE OR STORY IN THE BIBLE THAT HIT YOU?
The Prodigal Son. I have it on my wall. The son comes back, and the father is waiting for him and runs to him. Even before he ran to him, his heart was filled with compassion.
That tears me up, because the father didn’t point his finger at him and say, “I told you so!”. He was compassionate and ran to him . He didn’t wait for the kid to come to him; he didn’t try to make his son feel bad or manipulate him. It was just pure love.
I have the Rembrandt picture of it on my wall
Also the story of the Good Shepherd. That’s the name of the church that I go to.
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“When you can trust a bass player’s time, where it’s not driving or resting, what a relief that is”
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IS IT HARD TO FIND GOOD CHURHES WHEN YOU TRAVEL?
Never; there’s always something there. I find them.
NAME ME SOME BOOKS THAT YOU WISH EVERYONE WOULD READ
Notes and Tones by Art Taylor. My motto is “An A.T. a day keeps the doctor away” (laughs)
The Kenny Clarke biography was great.
Definitely The Bible
I had a great time reading Miles Davis’ book. While I was reading the book, I’d play the music he would refer to during each time period. When he was with Bird, I’d play Bird; ;when he was into the other stuff, I’d play that. That gave me an intimate knowledge of the actual music and actual person I had fun doing that.
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My motto is ‘An A.T. a day keeps the doctor away’”
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
I have three boys; what gives me the most joy is being with my kids and doing something with them.
I used to love dressing up and going to see someone like Jimmy Cobb at Sweet Basil with Nat Adderley’s group. I loved that band!
I used to love walking down the stairs, and you could start hearing Billy Higgins. I loved that.
I loved going to A.T.’s house on Sugar Hill, and hang out with him, have a lesson and then go and hang out, having lunch with him.
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“I can follow Pharoah Sanders into Neptune, the farthest away planet. I can hear what he’s doing, and I can feel it”
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YOU LOVE FELLOWSHIP!
I do!
I tell my students (but it’s impossible), I would love to go to see Max Roach, just to see how he walks up from the side of the stage on to the stage and up to the drums It wasn’t just fast; it was very calculated. He’d take the whole room in, and would look at the people. Then he stood above the drums like it was a sacred area, and it was! The drums were so perfectly put together, and tuned beautifully!
He’d look over them, and he’d take a breath , and everything was very calculated. To see him, with that look in his eyes. I’d wonder what he was seeing.
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“(Harold Mabern) stopped us and said, ‘Man, don’t play with me; play for me’”.
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WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
To play one tune with the feel of Louis Hayes. That real feeling; that would be awesome for me.
I need to make that transition into being more of a leader. I’d love to get a band together and have a repertoire.
I’m sitting at a piano that I’ve been staring at for 30 years. Maybe I should sit down here and learn how to write some tunes. (laughs)
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY WHEN THEY PUT YOU SIX FEET UNDER?
Something like “He tried his best, and he had a good heart. He loved his sons”
NEXT TIME YOU CHECK OUT FARNSWORTH KEEPING THE GROOVES WITH HIS OWN BAND OR AS A SIDEMAN, PAY ATTENTION NOT ONLY TO HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE TIME AND MUSIC, BUT TO HIS PERSONAL CONNECTION TO HIS FELLOW BANDMATES, AND MAYBE EVEN TO YOU, IF YOU TAKE SOME TIME TO CHAT WITH HIM BETWEEN SETS.
IT’S REFRESHING TO HEAR MUSIC FROM A MAN WHO VALUES THE HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL RELATIONSHIPS IN THEIR PROPER PERSPECTIVE TO HIS VOCATION. ISN’T THAT WHAT MAKES OUR CALLING WORTHWHILE?