MILES DAVIS STILL SPEAKS TO US!
DRUMMER AND PRODUCER VINCE WILBURN JUNIOR RECENTLY COLLABORATED WITH DRUMMER AND PRODUCER LENNY WHITE TO BRING TO LIGHT IDEAS, TONES AND SONGS EITHER PERFORMED OR INSPIRED BY UNCLE OR EMPLORYER MILES DAVIS.
WHAT THE TWO GENTS DID WAS BRING TOGETEHR ARTIST RANGING FROM MARCUS MILLER, STANLEY CLARKE, RON CARTER, JOHN SCOFIELD, JEREMY PELT, DARRYL JONES, JEREMY PELT AND WALLACE RONEY (AMONG OTHERS) AND PUT TOGEHER A SERIES OF TUNES THAT INCLUDE AND CAPTURE THE MUSICAL WORLD VISION OF MILES DAVIS, RESULTING IN THE FRESH AND THRILLING M.E.B. ALBUM THAT YOU NOT DARE TO FORGET.
WHITE WAS THE DRUMMER ON THE ICONIC ALBUM BITCHES BREW, WITH THIS AS HIS FIRST RECORDING AS JAZZ ARTIST AT 19 YEARS OLD. WILBURN, GROWING UP WITH ” UNCLE MILES” SAW THE DARK STAR FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERNT PERSPECTIVE, AS BOTH A RELATIVE, RECORDING PARTNER AND BAND MATE.
WE HAD A CHANCE TO CHAT ABOUT THE IMPACT OF NOT ONLY MILES, BUT OF THIS RECENT RELEASE. OF COURSE, THE TIME WAS, AS IS ALL MILES MOMENTS, ENLIGHTENING…
LET’S START WITH THE FIRST TIME EACH OFYOU WERE IN A STUDIO WITH MILES. LENNY, YOU WERE ONLY 19 WHEN YOU WALKED INTO MILES’ BITCHES BREW RECORDING. WHAT WAS YOUR JAZZ EXPERIENCE BEFORE THAT TO PREPARE YOU FOR THAT SESSION
LENNY:I played with my neighborhood friends.
LENNY: Neither of them are here to substantiate this, but this is the best information I can give you…
Tony (Williams) and Miles had a fall out. Miles had heard Tony’s band, Lifetime. Tony had brought John McLaughlin from London to the United States to play in his band. Miles had heard that band and really loved it; he wanted to produce Tony’s band, but Tony said “No”, he didn’t really want to do that.
So, when they did In A Silent Way, Tony showed up in the studio, and there was John McLaughlin! (chuckles) . Tony was not happy with that, and said that he would never play with Miles again.
Bitches Brew was supposed to have Jack DeJohnette and Tony Williams; Tony suggested me, so that’s how I got the call.
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“I was a deer in the headlights”
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WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION TO WALKING INTO A STUDIO WITH MILES?
I was a deer in the headlights
I came into the studio; I was the first one there at 9:30. I was setting up my drums, hitting them to see if everything was right. Jack was coming in, and then Miles. He pressed on the “Talk Back” button, and over the loudspeaker, said “Hey Jack, tell that young fellow to shut up” (laughs)
That was my first direction of ‘what to do’ with Miles Davis.
He did come up to me later and said “Think of this as a big pot of stew, and I want you to be salt” That was his direction.
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“He did come up to me later and said “Think of this as a big pot of stew, and I want you to be salt” That was his direction”
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WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE ALBUM PLAYED BACK?
LENNY: I was the only one to hear the rough takes. Miles invited me over to his house and played it.
I remember sitting there and listening, thinking “WOW!”. This was my first recording; I knew all of the parts and had retained everything that I had heard.
“Pharoah’s Dance” had a bridge, and that bridge never made the recording. “Pharoah’s Dance” has 19 cuts.
VINCE, WHEN DID YOU FIRST MEET LENNY?
VINCE: I met Lenny when he came through Chicago one time. My boys and I used to hang out back stage to the entrance at the Park Westhurst or Auditorium Theatre. Lenny came by in his sterling coat and his hat with that brim. He knew who I was; I just shouted out “Hey, Lenny!” and he was so cool; ;he just pointed to his road manager, who then gave me a bunch of tickets and passes, that’s how cool Len was.
All of these drummers were back stage: they were in awe because I got the tickets. Lenny just kept on walking in to do the sound check. He was so cool. This was back in the Return To Forever days. We’ve been tight ever since.
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“I was setting up my drums, hitting them to see if everything was right. Jack was coming in, and then Miles. He pressed on the “Talk Back” button, and over the loudspeaker, said “Hey Jack, tell that young fellow to shut up” (laughs)”
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WHEN DID YOU THEN GET TOGETHER?’
LENNY: For this recent project
But before that we did “Evolution of the Blues” with Carlos Santana .
WHAT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THIS RECENT ALBUM?
VINCE: The title is Hail to the REAL Chief. It was composed by Lenny. At the time of us getting together, there was someone else in White House office, but we don’t need to discuss that. (laughs)
Uncle Miles is affectionately known by musicians that are close to him as “The Chief”, hence “Hail to the REAL Chief”.
Stanley Nelson, the award winning director of the documentary film Birth of the Cool, loved the track so much that he asked Len and me if he could include it in on the soundtrack. That was the first tune we worked on.
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“I make records like directors make movies”
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YOU HAVE A FORMIDABLE LINEUP WITH THIS ALBUM. WHO GOT ALL OF THE MUSICIANS TOGTHER?
VINCE: It was before the pandemic, 2018 and I called Len. “I’m getting tired of the promotors considering the Miles Electric Band a “tribute” band; that was the label we were getting.
Of course, we all love Miles, and we’ve all been influenced by Uncle Miles. But I told Len, “Look, you’ve always been a forward thinker, you always think outside the box, you don’t get locked into one style…it would be cool if we could get together and produce a project together.”
Sony (Records) was all in, just because of the name “Lenny White”.
Lenny said that he wanted to take a look at some of the videos of the Miles Electric Band “live”, and then get back to me.
A week or two went by, and Len brought me a list of songs out of his catalogue that he’d composed and it just seemed to fit, musically, with this project.
Len would then say, “What do you think about this cat for this track?”
So we started making phone calls, and everyone was down and available. Here we are.
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“Because he was 19 when he played with Charlie Parker, he understood how I felt. That encouragement will stay for me for the rest of my life. He gave me that opportunity to play”
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LENNY: I make records like directors make movies.
I’m a big movie fan. I think of songs as being movie scenes.
If a record producer hears a song, and says “I think we should get James Gaston to play drum son this, and have Bill Lee to play the bass, because they would make a great rhythm section to sing behind this Aretha Franklin song. That’s how records are made.
The only difference for me, I make records like directors make movies.
So, with one song, I’ll think “This is a ‘day scene’, and it would be great to have Denzel (Washington) do a part in this”. “Denzel” is Ron Carter. You start thinking that way.
Vince and I sat together and said, “Let’s get Ron Carter to play on this song, and then Daryl Jones to play bass on this other song.
One track that was really great (“That You Not Dare To Forget”) with a spoken word. Stanley (Clarke) was in town, so we called him, and he said “Sure”.
This album is like a Robert Altman movie; you get all these “actors” to come and get together..
When we make music, we think of it from the perspective of it being cinematic; there’s a visual component to it. We pick the musicians that give us the best visual component that we can get.
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“I make records like directors make movies”
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ROBERT ALTMAN DID MOVIES AND TV SHOWS LIKE THE OLD 60s SERIES COMBAT!
LENNY: I’m a big movie guy; I listen to soundtracks and all of that stuff. It’s inspiration for me.
We musicians get inspirations from all different kinds of things.
On of the things that people miss or don’t put into the equation is that jazz musicians (or other musicians) only listen to music. We listen to all different kinds of music, AND read books, AND go to movies and do all kinds of things that are artistic, and we come out a certain way.
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This album is like a Robert Altman movie; you get all these “actors” to come and get together.
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SPEAKING OF WHICH, ARE THERE ANY BOOKS YOU’D RECOMMEND OTHERS WOULD READ?
LENNY: One is Caste, by Isabel Wilkerson. That book would give everyone a good perspective of where we are, and what world we live in.
VINCE: I love autobiographies. I loved Wayne Shorter’s book, Cicely Tyson’s Just As I Am.
I’m always curious of the minds of great thinkers, how they think and perceive things, and how they approach life. I’ve always been like that as a kid.
I used to just look at Uncle Miles, I lived with him in Malibu, and (Miles’s son) Erin would just sit and just watch him from day to day. When you’re around geniuses you want to stay within their trajectory. You want to have people around you who think outside the box, not just like Uncle Miles but all of the great thinkers, the ones that are always reaching.
Len is like that; he never looks back; Uncle Miles never looked back. Wayne evolved, Herbie evolved.
Take Ron Carter; when he was in the studio, after he had finished his takes, he said, “OK, Lenny, what’d you got? What’s next?”. That’s so magical. I’m reading Ron’s book, too.
I’m always curious to get into peoples’ heads and see how they think.
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“When we make music, we think of it from the perspective of it being cinematic; there’s a visual component to it. We pick the musicians that give us the best visual component that we can get”
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I TELL PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, “I’M NOT AS CONCERNED WITH YOUR OPINION AS MUCH AS HOW YOU ARRIVED TO IT”
LENNY: That’s a good question; “How did you get there?”
VINCE: I want to bring up a couple more things..
Everyone brought their “A” game to the studio. There was no pushback; we worked out the kinks. It was all love.
I was like a kid at Christmas. I wasn’t there for Bitches Brew, so I can now imagine what Lenny felt when he made that incredible record. This was my Bitches Brew
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“When you’re around geniuses you want to stay within their trajectory. You want to have people around you who think outside the box, not just like Uncle Miles but all of the great thinkers, the ones that are always reaching”
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WAS THIS YOUR BAPTISM BY FIRE, THEN?
VINCE: Oh, no! The Man with a Horn was my baptism. (laughs)
Any initial meeting with Miles is your baptism. Like Ron Carter said, “He’s the head chemist in the lab”.
We had a band in Chicago, and I used to call my mother and father’s house and have my mom put the phone down. This went on as we rehearsed five days a week and played on the weekends.
Uncle Miles would critique us after every rehearsal. After the third or fourth week he asked “Do you guys want to make a record?” That record was Man with A Horn.
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“Everyone brought their “A” game to the studio. There was no pushback; we worked out the kinks. It was all love”
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He flew us to New York, and got this hotel roon. We were thinking “Miles Davis and room service? Yeah!”
We started working with Teo Macero and Stan Tonkel. Uncle Miles would come in, listen and play. Gil Evans was staying off in the corner, just chillin’ and Uncle Miles would go over to him and whisper..
We did 15 songs and two were chosen, “The Man With A Horn” and “Shout”. For young kids out of Chicago, it was just beautiful to create music with a genius
LENNY: It was beautiful for me, too, to have an opportunity to meet and play with your hero. You just don’t get into a situation. That shaped me for the rest of my life.
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“On of the things that people miss or don’t put into the equation is that jazz musicians (or other musicians) only listen to music. We listen to all different kinds of music, AND read books, AND go to movies and do all kinds of things that are artistic, and we come out a certain way”
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YOU MIGHT BE THE ONLY MAN WHO’S PLAYED WITH MILES DAVIS THROUGH A 50 YEAR SPAN!
LENNY: That’s good! (laughs)
VINCE: As a kid, I didn’t know enormously global he was, because he was “Uncle Miles”. As I got older, listening to his records, I thought, “Oh, know I know!”
IT’S HARD TO APPRECIATE PEOPLE DURING THEIR TIME
VINCE: During the playbacks, Bernard Wright was doing a pass (the track) inside the control room. Lenny is as cool as a cucumber, looking at the board straight ahead. I’m next to Bernard, and I hear him take this pass, taking the track down, and I’m screaming like I’m at church!
Lenny’s laughing! Bernard stops the track and says “Vince! You’ve got to be cool, man; I’m trying to get this track down.” I said, “Bernard, I’ve got the Holy Ghost!” (laughs)
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“I hear him take this pass, taking the track down, and I’m screaming like I’m at church!”
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I talked to Bernard’s wife (Anita) later on, and she said that’s what Bernard’s grandmother used to say to Bernard when she listened to him play.
LENNY: I had a conversation with Wayne Shorter; Bernard played with Wayne Shorter. Wayne Shorter called Bernard a genius. Say no more.
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Any initial meeting with Miles is your baptism. Like Ron Carter said, “He’s the head chemist in the lab”.
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HOW WAS IT WHEN YOU HEARD HIS VOICE AND HORN AGAIN ON THE PLAYBACK? WAS THERE ANY EMOTIONAL REACTION?
LENNY: I can understand if Vince has a different perspective.
My perspective is that this was a man who was an influence in my life before I even met him.
To be able to create art with him is everlasting. To me, he’s always alive; he’s always present, whatever situation that I can get to relive and put it into a present space and time, that is what I do. If it’s not physically his sound on his trumpet, it’s something that he has left me with musically that I can interject.
VINCE: I listen to him every day. He comes to me in d reams, and all I see is his face
LENNY: I had a dream about him the other night!
VINCE: I see his smile, and then he disappears.
It’s not haunting or scary, it’s pleasant; it’s like air. And then he’s gone.
I equate that with him saying “you and Lenny are doing what you’re supposed to do; you have my blessing”
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“To be able to create art with him is everlasting. To me, he’s always alive; he’s always present, whatever situation that I can get to relive and put it into a present space and time, that is what I do. If it’s not physically his sound on his trumpet, it’s something that he has left me with musically that I can interject”
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IT’s DIFFICULT TO DO A TRIBUTE TO SOMEONE WITHOUT REHASHING OLDER MATERIAL, AND YOU HAVE DO THAT ON THIS RELEASE.
VINCE: The beautiful thing about it is that, yes, you can say “Tribute”, but Lenny likes to call us “Disruptors”
Of course it’s influenced by Miles: we played with him, we love him. It’s just another way to go. It’s another way to approach the music. It’s another way to think. That always gets me going.
“The Spoken Word That You Dare Not To Forget”, the title song on the album…when Lenny played it for me, I said “Let’s get Cicely Tyson to do the spoken word. We called her and sent her the track; she loved it. We just couldn’t work out the logistics to get it done.
We then had “Lenny’s Loft”. One Friday, Lenny had his granddaughter Rashe Reeves, at The Loft, She shared some of her poems, and I thought “Oh, my. Who is this?!?”
After The Loft that night, I told Lenny “We couldn’t get Cicely; how about Rashe?” And of course, Len worked his magic! (laughs)
LENNY: The issue was that, yes, she was my granddaughter, but she knew nothing about Miles Davis. So I told her, “I’m going to give you the opportunity to write “The Spoken Word” these two giants, a king and queen.
We explained to her who Miles Davis and Cicely Tyson were, and she wrote something for me. I told her “Shay, this is not good enough; you don’t know who these people were, and still continue to be. You have to put more effort into this.”
She was getting frustrated, but I told her “Don’t get frustrated. You’re an artist; this will happen to you”
She came back, and I said “OK. This is acceptable; I’ll send it to Vince”
The next thing I know, the name of the project is “The Spoken Word”! (laughs)
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Of course it’s influenced by Miles: we played with him, we love him. It’s just another way to go. It’s another way to approach the music. It’s another way to think. That always gets me going
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SO SOMEONE WAS IMPRESSED!
LENNY: I played it for my wife, and she got tears. I played it for her sister, and her sister got tears. I played it for my son, and other people in the family, and they asked “Who’s that?” I told them “It’s Rashae”. They said it sounded like another person.
The effect was profound.
VINCE: You could feel it.
*Lenny and I learned a lot from Miles. We bounced so many ideas off of each other, because we all evolve, and you want to evolve with the right people
We were in New York, getting ready for the next day’s session, and someone I wanted to see was playing at the Village Vanguard. I told Lenny, “Let’s go see so and so at The Village Vanguard.” I don’t even remember who it was now. But Lenny said, “Hey, man. No, I’m gonna stay here and prepare for the session tomorrow.”
You know what I did? The same thing; I stayed in. He wanted to stay focused; we had business to do. He was right; I had to keep my mind together .
****Everyone on this record had that same, maybe not “killer instinct”, but that’s what it was.
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“we all evolve, and you want to evolve with the right people”
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DID THE TRUMPET PLAYERS WALLACE RONEY OR JEREMEY PELT FEEL INTIMIDATED GIVING TRIBUTE TO SUCH A LEGEND?
VINCE: They both loved Miles!
LENNY: Miles Davis was 19 years old when he first played with Charlie Parker. When I played with Miles, I was 19 years old.
On one of those (Bitches Brews) dates that we did, there was something that he wanted. Miles didn’t know what it was that he wanted, but he knew who to get, to get to what he wanted
It was on “Miles Runs The Voodoo Down”, and back then I was playing all of this slick stuff, and Miles said (in his Miles voice ) “Naw, you ain’t getting’ the chicken”.
(Percussionist) Don Alias had his real simple cymbal line beat. I couldn’t play it; Jack (DeJohnette) couldn’t play it, but he and Jack played it together, and I’m playing percussion.
After the session I was really despondent. I was sitting down in the corner and he came over to me.
I told him, “Man, I had this opportunity to play with you, and it didn’t work out”.
He said, “No, No. You come again and be here tomorrow.”
**Because he was 19 when he played with Charlie Parker, he understood how I felt. That encouragement will stay for me for the rest of my life. He gave me that opportunity to play.
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“Everyone on this record had that same, maybe not “killer instinct”, but that’s what it was”
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IS THERE ANY CHANCE TO GET THIS BAND TOGETHER TO PLAY THIS MATERIAL IN CONCERT?
VINCE: We’re going to play it, and we’re going to do it right.
We’ve already had an offer from a jazz festival; all of the same musicians that are on the record. We’re just now working on the budget, and for the times we can get together, as everyone’s a band leader.
LENNY: This music is an audio movie
VINCE: Also, the album cover was done by (NAME) Michael Ellem, who travelled with Miles, kind of like a valet. They painted together.
So when Len and I started this project, we told Michael, and told him how we love his art and could he send us some of his pieces so we could se which ones we could put on the record.
He said “Send me the tracks”, so what you see on the cover is how the sonic movie spoke to him . This is what he came up with.
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“Miles didn’t know what it was that he wanted, but he knew who to get, to get to what he wanted”
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MILES WAS MADE FOR MOVIES
LENNY: I’m a film guy. There have been some guys that came up to me to have them come and do their sound tracks. We need more of that
VINCE: We were playing the title track for Stanley (Clarke), and he said that his track was the one that bridges the entire sound track together, for the Birth of the Cool documentary.
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“This music is an audio movie”
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MILES DAVIS WAS ALWAYS ONE TO NOT WANT TO FOCUS ON HIS EARLIER RECORDINGS, BUT ALWAYS ON HIS “NEXT” ONE. LENNY WHITE AND VINCE WILBURN JR. HAVE CONTINUED THAT CONCEPT, WITH MILES STILL CREATING NEW MUSIC FOR ETERNITY, FROM ETERNITY.