WHENEVER WE THINK OF THE MIX OF JAZZ AND RELIGION, WHAT USUALLY COMES TO MIND ARE BLACK SPIRITUALS OR “HOLINESS” MUSIC OF THE PENTECOSTAL CHURCH.
NORWEGIAN PIANIST AND COMPOSER TORD GUSTAVSEN IS ABLE TO MELD THE TWO IDEAS OF MODERN JAZZ AND RELIGION AS WELL, BUT WITH THE TWIST OF A SCANDINAVIAN INFLUENCE IN HIS SPIRITUALITY. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT MR. GUSTAVSEN HAS ALSO BROUGHT IN AN ELEMENT OF PSYCHOLOGY, WHICH MAY SEEM LIKE A STRETCH UNTIL YOU REMEMBER THAT THE WORD “PSYCH” ORIGINALLY COMES FROM THE GREEK WORD “SOUL”, ACTUALLY COMPLETING THE SONIC CIRCLE.
GUSTAVSEN’S ALBUMS HAVE USUALLY BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH HIS SENSITIVELY ATTUNED TRIO, BUT HE HAS ALSO BROUGHT IN OTHER MUSICIANS SUCH AS VOCALISTS, PARTICULARLY FOR HIS MORE FOLK AND RELIGIOUS MUSIC. IT IS A MARRIAGE THAT WORKS WELL.
WE RECENTLY WERE ABLE TO HAVE A ZOOM CHAT WITH TORD, AND LIKE HIS ALBUMS SUCH AS THE RECENT OPENING, WE FOUND HIM FERVENT, THOUGHTFUL AND INSIGHTFUL.
YOU GREW UP IN THE CHURCH.WHAT DID YOU LEARN MUSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY AT CHURCH?
The very first time was improvising with the piano at home with my father. That was based on lullabies , hymns or short classical pieces and spirituals. What ever my father played, and we improvised from them. I did some classical piano playing later.
The church settings were fundamentally important, playing in youth choirs and to congregational singing. From very early on it was part of my life.
HOW WAS IT IMPORTANT MUSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY?
First and foremost, there were always settings where music mattered, without having the pressure of soloist concerts. Music was a way of serving and having community. I think that’s potentially more healthy than starting out playing with the pressure of a concert.
At the same time, I was still seen, so there was a building of a self of sense that I was the one who played the piano. It was not totally ego-less, but it was still a setting where music was allowed to be important, but serving a wider totality.
There were also a ton of fantastic melodies and songs that gave form and substance to my musical orientation, and songs that still are important in making up my musical basis.
The hymns from different traditions are my “standards” as a jazz musician. They came earlier to me than the typical jazz standards. They are deep in my soul, and are always a source of unalienated musical energy. Whenever I get in touch with that, I play from a natural point of departure.
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“The hymns from different traditions are my “standards” as a jazz musician”
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I UNDERSTAND THAT. GROWING UP GREEK ORTHODOX, I GREW UP WITH A CERTAIN COLLECTION OF SOUNDSTHAT YOU ASSOCIATE WITH YOUR EARLY, AND IT NEVER ESCAPES YOU
Yes, and the lyrics to the hymns!
Some of them I had to really walk with and struggle with in years of gaining more theological independence, and exploring other spiritual traditions.
I studied the Science of Religion at the university, and got involved in much more liberal church settings than my parents were in when I was young.
Much of the message of sin and salvation type of Christianity I could not deal with for a long time.
I was then later blessed to re-open those hymns after “going my rounds” and in a way coming back to it, in a more pluralistic, liberal standpoint, and seeing the metaphoric content as good again, after seeing it only as oppressive for several years.
YOU HAVE TO COME TO A POINT WHERE YOU “OWN” A BELIEF SYSTEM at least in parts of the church
It was a deep process, and I’m grateful that I can still be at home in church…and at home in the hymns.
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“I’m grateful that I can still be at home in church…and at home in the hymns”
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USUALLY, WHEN YOU THINK OF PIANO TRIOS, YOU THINK OF THINGS LIKE BUD POWELL, MCCOY TYNER, KEITH JARRETT, OSCAR PETERSON, BRAD MEHLDAU OR THE BAD PLUS.
YOUR BAND HAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FEEL. DID YOU MAKE A CONSCIOUS EFFORT TO SOUND SO DISTINCT, OR WAS IT A NATURALLY RESULT OF YOUR FOLK AND CHURCH UPBRINGING?
First and foremost it was an organic process.
I had played a lot of more “American” jazz during my conservatory years, and am inhabited by a lot of players from the American Canon.
But it happened when I started playing with my first trio.
There was almost this physical sense of the music getting stronger the less we played. This almost meditative concentration on smaller details and of letting every note count; letting every note get as much space as it deserves.
There was a kind of essential minimalism that we felt in the interplay between the three of us that was really compelling. We had not felt it before in the same way before or in other contexts. That was the most fundamental reason for the development of that sound. We felt, “Oh, there is something here. Let’s stay here and explore it; let’s see where this takes us.”
We also deal with contrasts, with the harmonic complexity and dense interplay sometimes, but it always comes from this point of departure a kind of drastic or radical minimalism or stripped down way of feeling the music
When we recorded the first album, the producer at ECM was very helpful in encouraging us to go down that road and not think that you have to alternate between uptempo and ballad every second tune for it to be improvised jazz.
The main thing is to go where the music feels essential, where it vibrates. That’s what it became for us
Later albums he challenged us the completely opposite way, encouraging dynamic waves and contrasts in the music. It’s a never ending process of finding where the music vibrates, where it +feels you’re saying something that’s not what already been said, or something you’re just quoting something in effect.
Of course we quoting, as we are a part of traditions and part of history, but you know it when you have this feeling of saying that is important here and now and not just repeating something.
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“There was almost this physical sense of the music getting stronger the less we played. This almost meditative concentration on smaller details and of letting every note count; letting every note get as much space as it deserves”
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WHEN YOUR FELLOW TRIO MEMBERS ARE NOT WITH YOU, DO YOU ALL THREE PLAY DIFFERENT STYLES WITH DIFFERENT MUSICIANS? OR DO YOU KEEP THAT STYLE WHEN YOU ARE ALL IN DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTS?
All of our albums have been with (NAME), although we’ve had some gigs with other drummers.
We all share a passion for going for the essence, and a passion for not babbling around, but trying to say something important with the music.
That can come out in very different ways. For example, the drummer does a lot of free form electronic type of music, and has a virtualistic type of band. Our bass player has his own kind of solo project and plays with a more hard hitting post-bop groups. We definitely play other things.
I do a lot of work with vocalists, fiddle players and other musicians in meditative settings. In a way , it all comes together when we all play together. The stylistic frames that we work under are really diverse.
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“It’s a never ending process of finding where the music vibrates, where it feels you’re saying something that’s not what already been said, or something you’re just quoting something in effect”
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WHEN YOU DO YOUR ALBUMS WITH VOCALISTS, DO YOU HAVE THEM “SHARE YOUR VISION” OR LET THEM COME IN TO ADD A NEW INFLUENCE TO YOUR BAND?
More of the latter.
Some of the albums that I’ve done with vocalists have been other projects not under my name, or with choirs where I had arranged music. Those have been very beautiful side projects.
But the two albums on ECM that I initiated with voice with my compositions, or arrangements of traditional hymns would never have worked if the vocalists were not already on the same path, so to speak, and cherishing the details, going for the essence, and having their spirituality integrated
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“you (don’t) have to alternate between uptempo and ballad every second tune for it to be improvised jazz”
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WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO CONVEY WHEN YOU ARE DOING YOUR CHORAL MUSIC? IS IT FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS? A MUSICAL ATMOSPHERE? OR FOR THE SAKE OF MUSIC ITSELF?
When I do choral music, those three are inseparable.
Even when we do instrumental versions of hymns or chorales in the trios, in which we play some Bach Chorales and we play instrumental versions of Norwegian hymns, the texts are always, in a way, always with me. In a way, we play the content of the hymn instrumentally. That is not to say that it is in any way necessarily “ religious” instrumental music, except in my opinion any music is spiritual music.
We are a trio of one agnostic, one atheist and me, a liberal Christian, so we are definitely not preaching a specific dogma. (laughs)
When I do choral music with choirs, its really inseparable. The words fill the music with meaning and vice versa.
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“in my opinion any music is spiritual music”
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SPEAKING OF INSEPARABLE-TELL ME HOW YOUR THESIS ON PSYCHOLOGY AND IMPROVISATIONS ALL TIE TOGETHER
I was always playing the piano, but I didn’t necessarily think that it would be a job.
So, I started my studies in psychology, sociology and religious studies, and my Bachelor Degrees were in those subjects Those were really huge things for me; I got so much out of that. It made a lasting impression on me.
There were some deep psychological theories that kept living with me and f kept feeling that the more I went into music full-time, studying in the conservatory, forming bands and making a living from it, I still had this feeling that I had a calling to make some kind of bridges between the experiences of playing music, of improvising, and these psychological theories of dealing with paradoxes.
That was the main calling, so to speak, because I felt that there were important, and not yet fully-researched parallels between the paradox, or dynamics of distance and closeness; Being absorbed in something, and yet having an analytical mind about it, of dealing with intensity and coolness at the same time.
When you play, you really have to make this come together. You have to be involved in a childlike way, but also, especially in advanced jazz you have to have the analytical mind of quite a sophisticated composer and musical analysis working at the same time.
Music gets good when there is no separation between those. That can sound easy, but in life it is not, because it is so easy to get stuck on one side.
I have found some psychological theory that thematizes synthesis in dilemmas, taking from research in Couples Therapy, in the Development of The Self in Infants where I saw some strong parallels and felt that I could put something together in a thesis.
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“especially in advanced jazz you have to have the analytical mind of quite a sophisticated composer and musical analysis working at the same time”
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IT IS THE SAME TYPE OF THING AS WORSHIPPING IN CHURCH; AS SOON AS YOU START THINKING ABOUT YOUR WORSHIPPING, YOU’RE NOT DOING IT ANYMORE AND YOU LOSE THE CONNECTION
Yes, and how to negotiate that, how to live that way while doing it
WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT YOURSELF DURING THE COVID LOCKDOWN?
We had two years of very few concerts; at times nothing happening at all except the infamous live stream concerts. We don’t need more of those!
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“We all share a passion for going for the essence, and a passion for not babbling around, but trying to say something important with the music”
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AGAIN, IT IS LIKE A STREAMED CHURCH WORSHIP SERVICE. IT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE.
We all learn some things, and it is our job to try to make the best out of whatever we are given. To search for what we can learn from it is a good approach.
I’ve learned that it is a fragile society; culture is fragile, and things can actually break down. We should be so grateful for the opportunities to be in the same room as other people, to make music, to listen, to get together with friends and do all of these things that we have taken for ***granted. Gratitude is the most fundamental thing that I’ve learned
WHAT IS THE BEST LIFE OR MUSICAL ADVICE SOMEONE HAS GIVEN YOU?
”Listen more than you play”
I don’t even remember who told me that. I think I read it in the book Thinking In Jazz. It has become a very important guideline for me.
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”Listen more than you play”
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NAME ME A FEW BOOKS THAT YOU’VE READ THAT YOU WISH EVERYONE SHOULD READ
The one I just mentioned, Thinking In Jazz by Paul Berliner.
The Gospel of John in the Bible. All parts of the Bible are interesting and in some ways fantastic, but I find the Gospel of John so philosophic, as it contains the seven “I Am” mantras that I just created a choral work for. These are very deep truths and beautiful.
(Get Names) A third one is Integral Christianity by Paul Smith. For me, it was an eye-opener of the combination of Integral Philosophy as made known by Ken Rober (Wilber) along with Christian theology and the history of the church , and seeing our evolution in a new way. It might be where we might be heading, in post modern. After the time of “Everything is the same” and “No Truth is Higher Than Another”, with relativism being in the forefront, where can we go? We know that we need deeper commitment, but we cannot go back to saying “the others are wrong”. We cannot have a church that says…”you go to hell if you don’t believe this”, but we still need the passion, commitment and the spiritual fire.
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“Being absorbed in something, and yet having an analytical mind about it, of dealing with intensity and coolness at the same time”
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WHO IN WORLD HISTORY, LIVING OR DEAD, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN FOR AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Jesus Christ, then Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi. That would be a great dinner!
For dessert, I would invite Wayne Shorter. He would have to come. (laughs)
WHAT MUSICIAN, LIVING OR DEAD, WOULD YOU PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
Lots of them; Wayne Shorter is again the first one that comes to mind.
I find him so incredibly to the point, and yet open. Extreme flexibility, but never saying anything that is not essential.
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“I find (Wayne Shorter so incredibly to the point, and yet open. Extreme flexibility, but never saying anything that is not essential”
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
When a concert feels good. When I feel that we are entering into the field of music really saying something and the band is really happening, when there is no separation
WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR IN A P IANO PLAYER AND WHAT BOTHERS YOU IN PIANO PLAYERS?
I like and respect all styles, so I look for whatever is unique. That might be something I don’t really try to myself. So, if there is an especially nice touch or flowing technique, I will be intrigued by that.
The one thing I look for is how someone makes the piano sing. How does this particular piano player make the piano a vehicle of the inner voice?
WHAT FUTURE PROJECTS DO YOU HAVE?
We are right now in the middle of a tour for our latest release. We’ve done concerts in the UK, Norway, Ireland and later Canada. We’ll then do Germany, France and Austria before coming to the US in February.
We’ll be in San Francisco, Santa Cruz and San Diego for California.
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“The one thing I look for is how someone makes the piano sing. How does this particular piano player make the piano a vehicle of the inner voice?”
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YOU’RE PASSING LOS ANGELES AGAIN!
It was not my choice! It’s not easy finding a place to play. WE found a good auditorium in San Diego, and with SFJAZZ in San Francisco
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I would want them to say that I contributed some warmth and beauty to the world. That’s the most important thing. I made someone’s life better.
THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING INVITINGLY ATTRACTIVE TO OBSERVING THE TREK OF A PILGRIM ON A JOURNEY. TORD GUSTAVSEN IS ONE OF THOSE ARTISTS, LIKE THE MAIN CHARACTER IN JOHN BUNYAN’S CLASSIC PILGRIM’S PROGRESS, WHO IS UNABASHEDLY AND FERVENTLY CONTINUING HIS SPIRITUAL TREK, RECORDING IT IN HIS ALBUMS. HIS CATALOGUE IS REMINISCENT OF THE FAMOUS LINE ..
“This hill, though high, I covet to ascend;
The difficulty will not me offend.
For I perceive the way to life lies here.
Come, pluck up, heart; let’s neither faint nor fear.
Better, though difficult, the right way to go,
Than wrong, though easy, where the end is woe.”
― The Pilgrim’s Progress
MAY HE, LIKE US AS HIS FANS, BE INSPIRED AND CONTINUE ON OUR PATHS AS PILGRIMS.