SINCE THE EARLIEST DAYS OF JAZZ, JEWISH MUSICIANS HAVE BEEN A MAJOR FORCE, VOICE AND INFLUENCE. THE PULSE OF KLEZMER MUSIC CAN BE HEARD IN SWING, AS WELL AS THE AGONIZING CRIES OF BOTH THE SHOFAR AND HUMAN CANTORAL CRIES.
ISRAELI TENOR SAXIST ELI DEGIBRI HAS CREATED AN IMPRESSIVE CATALOGUE MIXING SOUNDS OF HIS NATIVE COUNTRY WITH THE BEST THAT POST BOP HAS TO OFFER. MOST INTRIGUING, HOWEVER IS HIS LATEST ALBUM, HENRI AND RACHEL, WHICH IS DEDICATED TO HIS RECENTLY DEPARTED DAD, WHO SUCCUMBED TO CANCER, AND TO HIS MOM, WHO IS SUFFERING FROM SENILE DEMENTIA.
ONE OF THE DEEP CULTURAL ASPECTS OF JUDAISM IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FAMILY. THIS RECENT ALBUM FOCUSES ON THAT FOUNDATION OF SOCIETY. EVEN ONE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IS TO “HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER” AND WITH THIS LATEST RELEASE, DEGIBRI HAS FULFILLED THAT LAW.
WE RECENTLY HAD A CHANCE TO HAVE A ZOOM CHAT WITH DEGIBRI, WHO WAS AS SWEET AS THE FAMED ISRAELI SABRA FRUIT.
YOU FIRST GOT MY ATTENTION A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WITH YOUR TWELVE ALBUM. YOU STARTED OFF GETTING HERBIE HANCOCK’S ATTENTION. WHAT HAPPENED BACK THEN?
When I was 18 years old, I moved to Berklee, in Boston.
The first semester I was there, I heard about the Monk Institute, which is now the Herbie Hancock Institute. They were doing auditions for their Second Generations Band.
I auditioned, and one of the giants there was Ron Carter. I was accepted, which was how I met Herbie, as Ron recommended me.
Ron was our instructor for two years.
WHAT WAS THE ADVICE YOU GLEANED FROM HIM?
I got much advice from Ron.
One of the best pieces of advice I got from him, and I still use, is how to dress. The way that Ron dresses is also the way that he treats music. It’s with much respect, and he doesn’t anything in this business, including every note selection without care and respect. This is a lesson that I learned.
I wasn’t joking about learning about dressing for the music; it’s a way to show how serious this music is and how importantly we take it.
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“One of the best pieces of advice I got from (Ron Carter), and I still use, is how to dress. The way that Ron dresses is also the way that he treats music”
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WERE YOU INTIMIDATED PLAYING WITH HERBIE HANCOCK?
The first time was a concert where he was a guest in the Thelonious Monk band. The first stop was in Chile, South America.
I was playing during the sound check, and had my eyes closed, and when I opened them, I see Herbie right next to me. There’s %$^@ Herbie Hancock right here!!
I kept looking at him. I wasn’t thinking; I was just staring at him while he was playing a solo during the sound check.
After a couple of minutes, he turned his head and asked “Why are you staring at me like that?”. He wasn’t trying to be mean, but it was too much for him to see how much in awe and afraid I was of him. To be in his presence.
Very quickly, though things got a lot easier.
But even today, I still don’t feel comfortable being next to these guys. They make so much history and are true genius. For me, it’s very hard to be comfortable, but it’s easier.
One time Herbie’s wife came to me, and she told me, “You know, Herbie doesn’t stop talking about you”. This was the first clue of things to come.
YOU MUST HAVE GOTTEN SOME CONFIDENCE, AS YOUR SECOND ALBUM CONSISTS OF DUETS, AND ALL OF YOUR ALBUMS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER
I want to say something about playing with these jazz giants.
After getting these experiences and big gigs that I first had, I was sure that my phone wouldn’t stop ringing. I thought I’d be the busiest saxophonist in New York, but that didn’t happen. On the contrary!
I was shocked, but it made me realize that I had to take control of my career, and that I can’t be counting on the phone to just ring in order to have work or make music. This is when I started writing, and having my own band and developing with Aaron Goldberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Ben Street and Jeff Ballard.
I asked Al Foster for recommendations and he mentioned them, and I thought, “They’re not going to like me”. But we got together and they loved the music, so I gained a lot of self-confidence about my writing.
It was very hard at the time, but I realize today that it not only made me the musician that I am, but also the leader that I am today.
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“After getting these experiences and big gigs that I first had, I was sure that my phone wouldn’t stop ringing. I thought I’d be the busiest saxophonist in New York, but that didn’t happen. On the contrary!”
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SO, YOU DIDN’T GET THESE CONNECTIONS BY ANYONE “DISCOVERING” YOU, BUT YOU HUSTLED AND WENT TO THEM.
For sure. The recording I did with Ron Carter, Al Foster and Brad Mehldau (Israeli Sun), was not necessarily after I “proved myself” as a writer. I had to come forward to Ron and Al (which was easier, as I had played with them before) and Brad, asking them to record with me a new album with new songs. It was an incredible experience.
Also, until that day I don’t think that those three ever played together. Ron and Al of course did, but not with Brad
WHEN YOU PLAY THE TENOR, WHAT MUSICIANS HAVE INFLUENCED YOU?
When I started, it was first Cannonball Adderley, Sonny Stitt and Bird. They were my main influences because I started on the alto sax.
But once you hear Coltrane, it’s a game changer, and it’s what you want to do. From there it was Michael Brecker, George Coleman, Oliver Nelson, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Sonny Rollins…all of those bold and manly players.
It’s funny, but through playing those tenor sounds was how I started feeling like a man. I liked the manly tone.
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“once you hear Coltrane, it’s a game changer, and it’s what you want to do”
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YOU DIDN’T MENTION HANK MOBLEY, BUT YOU DID A TRIBUTE TO HIM. HE’S USUALLY CALLED “THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMP”
Hank Mobley is the best mix of being tender and a “mensch” (laughs) on the tenor sax that I can think of.
Take Stan Getz, for example. His sound is very interesting; it can be fluffy, like on the bossa nova; very romantic. But when you read about him as a person, he was manly.
When you hear his sound again knowing his personality, you can hear the fierceness and an energy that is aggressive and violent.
IT REMINDS ME OF THE AGONY OF A CANTOR
Yes! But with Hank Mobley’s sound, you don’t hear it; you get a gentleness.
OK, THAT’S WHAT YOU LIKE. DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE ABOUT SAXOPHONISTS?
There are two things that make me not want to listen to a saxophonist…
First is the tuning. When I hear a saxophone, it’s not like I’m looking for every note to be in tune, but there needs to be a rainbow. Tuning can be flexible, but if it’s not right I don’t like it.
I’ll give you an example when I do like it…
Jackie McLean is obviously bright, but it’s in a flexibility that I like. players, Some tenor players, who I won’t mention by name, I don’t like because of their tuning.
The other thing would be timing. Hank Mobley has the perfect timing. Coltrane has a perfect time, even though he had a different sense of time. Both had perfect time.
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“When I hear a saxophone, it’s not like I’m looking for every note to be in tune, but there needs to be a rainbow”
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DO ISRAELI AUDIENCES LISTEN TO JAZZ DIFFERENTLY THAN AMERICAN AUDIENCES?
Great question.
When I was young, around 16, I started understanding that jazz was going to be me life; this was going to be the thing that I wanted to do forever. I immediately and obviously thought about America and New York, black American music and black musicians. As a young, foolish and stupid kid, I thought that I’d come to America and every black person I see is going to be either a great musician or just obviously love jazz.
That was wrong of me to think that. In a way I realized that we are all the same.
I don’t think that Israelis or Americans listen to jazz differently, but I do think (broadly speaking) that musicians who are American or Israeli who listen to the music, listen to it differently. I personally prefer the way black American musicians hear it.
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“Hank Mobley has the perfect timing. Coltrane has a perfect time, even though he had a different sense of time. Both had perfect time”
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HOW DO THEY HEAR IT DIFFERENTLY?
It’s what made me fall in love with it. Rhythmically, its from the stomach. It’s a combination of an almost rage. That’s where it comes from; it doesn’t come from a spoiled kid who learned jazz in school.
That’s not to say that we Israelis are spoiled. In fact I think that’s why Israeli musicians hear jazz so well, because we also come from a place of conflict.
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“It’s what made me fall in love with it. Rhythmically, its from the stomach. It’s a combination of an almost rage”
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YOU BRING UP AN IMPORTANT POINT. IN FACT THE NAME “ISRAEL” MEANS “TO STRUGGLE”
Yes! Yes! Yes!
I think that is why a lot of black Americans relate to Israeli musicians. We hear this music the same way. From the first moment that I heard black musicians such as Bird, Cannonball and Sonny, I didn’t want to listen to anything else.
Today, looking back on it, it’s like it didn’t really matter if I was living in Jaffa or Harlem, because I was listening to that emotion of music.
IT’S VERY SIMILAR TO HEARING THE KLEZMER CLARINET PLAYING OF GIORA FEIDMAN; YOU’RE HEARING THE CRIES OF THE CENTURIES
It’s the same thing.
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“through playing those tenor sounds was how I started feeling like a man. I liked the manly tone”
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IT’S LIKE A JEWISH FRIEND OF MINE WHO LOVED TO LISTEN TO THINGS LIKE ALBERT AYLER OR BLACK 50s GOSPEL MUSIC, AS THEY ARE BOTH CRIES OF TRYING TO CROSS OVER THE RIVER.
Yes, it’s the same feeling in music.
SPEAKING OF EMOTIONS, YOUR LATEST ALBUM IS ABOUT A DEEP SUBJECT, THE LOVE OF YOUR PARENTS AS THEY AGE AND LEAVE YOU PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY. YOU WERE TRYING TO PASS SOMETHING ON WITH THIS ALBUM
It definitely relates to what we just talked about.
Agony from missing the most important people in life. My mom is still alive, but 6 years ago she was diagnosed with Dementia and Parkinson’s Disease. So, in a way, I’ve already lost my mom. She’s not the same person that I knew when she was younger. She doesn’t remember a lot of things; she can’t walk, she can’t give me a hug. That was the beginning of a process that was very for me, after which my dad was diagnosed with cancer and passed away 5 months ago.
I’m an only child, so when it comes to my parents, I’m like a baby; I stayed a toddler and I miss them. Even though my mom is still alive I miss her, my “real” mom.
Writing this music, performing and recording it in front of them just before dad passed away was something that I had to do, because it helped me, and will still help me to remember them forever.
Forever. If there is such a thing as “forever” (and, honestly, I don’t really believe in such a thing, but if there IS such a thing like a soul that still exists and goes somewhere else), I know that my dad is singing these songs over there because he was so happy and proud of this music.
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” In fact I think that’s why Israeli musicians hear jazz so well, because we also come from a place of conflict”
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BEING JEWISH, YOU SHOULD BE COMFORTED BY PSALM 23 BY THE PEN OF KING DAVID, “I WILL DWELL IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD FOREVER”. THE PROPHET DANIEL ALSO WROTE THAT THE RIGHTEOUS WILL LIVE FOREVER WITH GOD.THAT SHOULD GIVE US HOPE. OTHERWISE LIFE IS A CRUEL JOKE. AS WE AGE, AND WE GET CLOSER TO THE PINE BOX, WE ARE GETTING EITHER FARTHER FROM OUR “TREASURE” OR CLOSER TO IT, DEPENDING ON WHETHER OUR TREASURE IS HERE OR IN ETERNITY
Thank you for that. I needed that.
HAVING SAID THAT, ARE THERE ANY BOOKS OR PHILOSOPHIES THAT HAVE INFLUENCED YOU THAT YOU’D LIKE OTHERS TO READ?
There is one book that has influenced me that I think about all the time, it is Miles Davis’ autobiography. It is a kicker, because you see every side of life in this book.
Miles was my number one musician before reading that book, and he was even more after reading it. The honesty that you read in this book is so beautiful; you can learn a lot about the complexity of the human being.
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“If there is such a thing as “forever”… I know that my dad is singing these songs over there because he was so happy and proud of this music”
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OF ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE BIBLE, ONLY THE 5TH, “HONOR YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER” COMES WITH A PROMISE, “THAT IT MAY GO WELL WITH YOU AND THAT YOU MAY ENJOY LONG LIFE ON EARTH”. IT IS THIS FOUNDATIONAL LAW THAT KEEPS SOCIETY FROM SLIPPING APART, AND TENOR SAXIST ELI DEGIBRI HAS ADDED MORTAR TO HIS OWN CULTURE BY REMINDING PEOPLE THAT THE FAMILY IS WHAT MAKES US WHO WE ARE.
IF THERE IS A GOD WHO HONORS HIS WORD, THIS ALBUM BY DEGIBRI SHOULD MAKE HIS LIFE ON EARTH GO A LONG WHILE, AND THOSE WHO TAKE IT IN WILL BE INSPIRED TO HONOR THEIR OWN FAMILY. THERE FEW BETTER WAYS TO SPEND ONE’S TIME.