HOW DOES ONE KEEP THE MUSIC OF LEGENDS ALIVE, WHILE STILL RETAINING YOUR OWN IDENTITY?
THERE ARE SOME ‘GHOST’ BANDS THAT ATTEMPT TO EMULATE THE EXACT SOUNDS OF A COMPOSER OR ARRANGER. THE COUNT BASIE ORCHESTRA AND EVEN THE LINCOLN CENTER JAZZ ORCHESTRA HAVE CREATED CAREERS OF THAT NICHE. IS IT EDUCATION OR NOSTALGIA THAT BRINGS IN THE AUDIENCES?
ON THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM, THE LEGENDARY SOUNDS OF CHARLES MINGUS IS STILL BEING DELIVERED, BUT WITH A MUCH FREER SPIRIT.
FORMED IN 1993, THE BIG BAND HAS TAKEN CLASSIC MINGUS PIECES LIKE “BETTER GIT IT IN YOUR SOUL” AND “GOODBYE, PORK PIE HAT” AND USED THEIR FOUNDATIONS AS LAUNCHING PADS FOR CREATIVE ARRANGEMENTS AND FREE SPIRITED SOLOS.
TENOR SAXIST WAYNE ESCOFFERY HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF THE MBB SINCE 2000, REGULARLY TAKING PART IN THE WEEKLY CONCERTS, ORIGINALLY AT THE JAZZ STANDARD, AND PRESENTLY AT THE DJANGO ( http://www.thedjangonyc.com). BESIDES THAT, HE’S BEEN A REGULAR OF JEREMY PELT’S BLACK ART JAZZ ENSEMBLE AS WELL AS A REGULAR FOR TOM HARRELL’S ADVENTUROUS QUINTET.
I HAVE SEEN ESCOFFERY WITH BOTH HARRELL AND PELT, AND HE IS ONE OF THE FEW SAX PLAYERS AROUND THAT IS ABLE TO HAVE HIS OWN DISTINCT SOUND AND STYLE THAT HAS ONE FOOT IN THE TRADITION AND ONE WALKING TOWARDS THE FUTURE.
THAT IS NOT AN EASY TASK, AS THERE IS ALWAYS A BATTLE WITH THE ICONS OF THE PAST. WHAT NEW CAN AN ARTIST BRING TO THE MUSICAL TABLE?
WE HAD A CHANCE TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE TO MR. ESCOFFERY, WHO WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO SHARE HIS THOUGHTS ON MUSIC AND LIFE.
IN YOUR CHILDHOOD YOU WERE IN A BOYS CHOIR. HOW DID THAT PREPARE YOU FOR YOUR CAREER AS A JAZZ MUSICIAN, ESPECIALLY FOR CHARLES MINGUS’ MUSIC?
That’s an interesting question. One of my first teachers was Jackie McLean. He said that this music is learned aurally, by ear. That’s the tradition of the music and how it has been passed down.
Having begun my musical education in a boy’s choir, and learning by ear in that environment was a great start.
A lot of those close harmonies that we were dealing with in the choir very much parallel the close harmonies that I ended up playing later with people like Horace Silver, Tom Harrell and the Mingus Big Band. There’s a direct relation there.
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“Jackie McLean… said that this music is learned aurally, by ear. That’s the tradition of the music and how it has been passed down”
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YOU TAKE IN THINGS MORE DEEPLY WHEN YOU HAVE TO MEMORIZE WHAT YOU HEAR.
Very much so. Then I started doing a lot of transcriptions. Even from the beginning, when my musical harmony wasn’t necessarily musically together, my ear was well beyond everything else that I was doing, and that really helped get me through in a lot of ways. I am glad that I built that muscle up first .
SINCE MCLEAN WAS WITH CHARLES MINGUS, DID YOU EVER PICK HIS BRAIN ABOUT HIS DAYS IN THAT BAND?
The short answer is No. When I was studying with Jackie McLean I didn’t have my sights on Mingus’ music.
One of the huge characteristics of Jackie McLean is that he has such a strong artistic identity, and I think that without realizing it, that prepared me for The Mingus Big Band in a lot of ways. His musical personality was very individual, so all of us that come out of the Jackie McLean School actually sound pretty different from each other, with a pretty individual voice. That was one of his greatest teachings to us.
I think that is a huge part of Mingus’ music, and that is something that I brought to the Mingus Big Band.
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“all of us that come out of the Jackie McLean School actually sound pretty different from each other, with a pretty individual voice. That was one of his greatest teachings to us”
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WHAT WAS THE FIRST MUSIC FROM MINGUS THAT GOT YOUR ATTENTION?
Of course, the original version of “Goodbye, Pork Pie Hat”.
The first time I heard that was a kind of random occurrence.
I was a freshman or sophomore in college, and I was hanging out in Harlem. There was a group of us that hung out together: Ian Henderson Smith and I would hang out with Ryan Kaiser (who’s now a member of the Mingus Big Band.
Somehow we ended up in someone’s apartment in Harlem. Back then there were huge apartments available at a low price; it was great. We were there, and someone turned on the Mingus Ah Um album, and up came “Goodbye Pork Pie Hat”.
All of us were just hanging out and drinking beers, and we just stopped and listened to the whole take, the whole scene.
We’d just sit there, hang out, listen to music and sing the solos together. That listening session with Mingus really stuck with me. I then later on ended up playing in the Mingus Big Band with Ryan Kaiser.
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“All of us were just hanging out and drinking beers, and we just stopped and listened to (“Goodbye, Pork Pie Hat”), the whole scene.”
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DID YOU THEN GO THROUGH A “MINGUS PHASE” THAT SO MANY FANS DO, AND TRY TO GET EVERYTHING HE DID?
Like a lot of young musicians with high aspirations, I think that one of the draws for joining the Mingus Big Band is just to see the modern day band in action.
When I was in college, the Mingus Big Band was getting a lot of attention at the Time Café’. I remember seeing a magazine cover with that band on the cover, with tenor saxophonist Mark Shim taking a solo.
I remember looking at that cover and thinking to myself “I want to be in that band; I wanna be that guy”.
I had a lot of friends who had just started playing in the Mingus Band, namely Johnathan Blake and Jeremy Pelt. So I would go down on a regular basis and just listen to the band.
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“I remember looking at that cover (of the Mingus Big Band) and thinking to myself ‘I want to be in that band; I wanna be that guy’”.
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DID THEY HELP YOU GET IN THE BAND?
How I actually ended up getting in was that I’d go down and hang out there with Johnathan and Jeremy, and I sat in maybe once or twice. Sue (Mingus) seemed lukewarm to what I was doing.
Then one Thanksgiving (the band played every Thursday at The Fez Cafe), a lot of the cats were out of town, as they went home to see their families.
Sue Mingus called me the night before Thanksgiving and said “We need a sub a tenor; can you do it?”
I couldn’t believe it, because every time before when I played she’d say, “Hi Wayne, you sound nice”, but it didn’t seem like she meant it. (chuckles)
This was Thanksgiving 1999. I went down, and that was the beginning, and I’ve been with the band ever since.
WHAT IMPRESSED YOU MOST ABOUT THE CHARTS?
What impressed me most about the charts was how difficult they were to read. They were not well written; there were a lot of chicken scratches.
It was a testament to the musicianship of the musicians that they could read stuff like that.
I know that throughout the years with a lot of big bands, there was no finale, there was no Sibelius. The charts were hand written 908. I’d seen handwritten charts before, some are legible and some aren’t , so you had to really know how to read and interpret. You had to know how to listen; the charts did not play themselves.
First, you have to be a good reader; second, you have to be a good listener, and then you have to make intelligent decisions quickly. Everything is not on the page; it was definitely a challenge the first few times that you jump into that band.
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“What impressed me most about the charts was how difficult they were to read. They were not well written; there were a lot of chicken scratches. It was a testament to the musicianship of the musicians that they could read stuff like that “
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IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT, AS BUDDY COLLETTE USED TO SAY THAT ONE OF THE MAIN ASPECTS OF HIS DAYS WITH MINGUS’ BIG BAND WAS THAT IT WAS CHAOTIC.
It’s definitely important to have the right group of people playing and interpreting that music. If you have the wrong people, you can make a wrong turn and going down a dead end street.
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“It’s definitely important to have the right group of people playing and interpreting that music. If you have the wrong people, you can make a wrong turn and going down a dead end street”
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HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THAT EXPERIENCE COMPARED TO YOUR TIME WITH TOM HARRELL, AS HIS CHARTS ARE QUITE INTERESTING?
Tom writes very very challenging music. But the funny thing about Tom (and I don’t think many people know this about Tom) is that he’s an amateur cartoonist as well. He has amazing penmanship. If you seem him draw a cartoon, it looks like it should be in a Pixar film.
His music actually is very pristine and legible. I wouldn’t say that it’s easy to interpret, because the music. Just looking at his charts is a work of art, which is the opposite situation from Mingus.
HOW ABOUT WITH YOUR ASSOCIATION WITH JEREMY PELT.
Jeremy is similar to Tom in that he knows exactly what he wants. He actually writes the charts by hand. He’s Old School and they look pretty good.
He’s good at knowing which musicians that he wants around him, so he gives those musicians a certain amount of trust as far as interpreting his music. He’s similar to Tom in that way.
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“you have to be a good reader; second, you have to be a good listener, and then you have to make intelligent decisions quickly”
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WAS THERE EVER A GIG THAT WAS A BAPTISM BY FIRE?
The Mingus Band for sure.
First, you had al of the music, how it was written and all that. But then there are the characters in the band.
I mentioned before how important it is to be an individual in that band. When I joined that band I was one of the youngest members; it was all veterans: John Stubblefield was there, Vincent Herring, Michael Brecker, Eddie Henderson, Frank Lacey and John Hicks. These guys had been playing in the band for a long time. They had no problem yelling out instructions, telling you to lay out or tell you that you didn’t know what you were doing, or telling you that you were lost. It was definitely a trial by fire.
By the same token, they would have no problem letting you fall into a ditch every now and then. (laughs) . They figured that you had then learned your lesson after you’d gone into that ditch. That band was definitely a trial by fire.
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“By the same token, they would have no problem letting you fall into a ditch every now and then. (laughs) . They figured that you had then learned your lesson after you’d gone into that ditch. That band was definitely a trial by fire”
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DID YOU FEEL INTIMIDATED WHEN YOU PLAYED WITH HERBIE HANCOCK?
I did, although I didn’t play with him for a very long time. I played with him in the context of The Thelonious Monk Institute.
It was a small ensemble, and he played half of a set with us every night for several weeks. I was very intimidated; it was Herbie Hancock!
I was in my 20s, and I could play the horn, but I don’t know if I was ready to make music at the high art level of Hancock.
I remember that one time we were on tour in Argentina, and while on the road I actually called Ron Carter. I said, “Ron, I’m just so nervous; I don’t know what to do when Herbie’s comping; I’m not sure what to do”.
Ron kind of candidly said, “Don’t worry about it, Wayne. Herbie is Herbie, and he’s just going to do his Herbie thing. You just play.” (laughs)
I didn’t know exactly what that meant, but I do know that it was encouraging to me. He was basically telling me to trust myself and just play.
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“(Ron Carter) was basically telling me to trust myself and just play”
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YOU JUST SAID SOMETHING THAT IS IMPORTANT. THERE’S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT AND MAKING MUSIC. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
It can mean a lot of things.
I think that when you’re young and you’re focused on your music, you get focused on what you’re doing, and understandably so. You get focused on your technique, because you’re in the middle of developing your technique, so you’re over concerned about it. You’re focused on the lines you’re playing, you’re focused the harmonies, you’re focused on how you’re presenting yourself and how you look.
You’re focused on yourself so much that you don’t focus on anyone else; you’re not focused on the rhythm section, or on leaving space, or call and response, most important of all, when not to play. Those are all of the things that make music.
Ironically enough, even though we study harmony and all of this other stuff, what people actually pay attention to and remember is actually the music, and not necessarily the technical things that we spend so much time on.
As a young player, it’s just hard to understand and appreciate that.
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“Even though we study harmony and all of this other stuff, what people actually pay attention to and remember is actually the music, and not necessarily the technical things that we spend so much time on.”
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YOU MENTIONED TRANSCRIPTIONS. WHAT WERE YOU TRANSCRIBING AND WHY?
I transcribed everybody; I’m a big proponent of that. That’s how I learned.
That’s not an understatement. I transcribed Jackie McLean, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Woody Shaw, JJ Johnson…everyone you could think of. I was just trying to understand the vocabulary of the music and really get the language under my belt.
I did that so that I could speak the language fluently and therefore be creative in the language.
YOU DIDN’T LIMIT YOUR TRANSCRIPTIONS TO SAX PLAYERS. DID YOU PRACTICE PIANO PLAYERS AND BRASS MUSICIANS’ SOLOS ON YOUR TENOR SAX?
I did. Because I went to school with Jackie McLean as a teacher, I realized the school had an abundance of saxophone players. It was a ton of saxophone players, and just one or two drummers. A rhythm section was hard to come by.
Because of that, honestly, at some point I just got sick of hearing the saxophone. I was tired of it; I was living with saxophone players, I was learning saxophone solos, my teacher was a saxophone player. I was sick of hearing it.
So, I actually took a year and intentionally on my own not listen to a saxophone player.
Of course, day to day I still heard the saxophone. I heard my friends and Jackie McLean, but I wouldn’t intentionally listen to it. On my own spare time I wouldn’t put on any record that had a saxophone player. I did that for at least a year.
It was then I checked out JJ Johnson, McCoy Tyner and Grant Green. It was a great break. I’ve embraced the idea of listening to people not on my instrument.
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“You’re focused on yourself so much that you don’t focus on anyone else; you’re not focused on the rhythm section, or on leaving space, or call and response, most important of all, when not to play. Those are all of the things that make music”
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HAVING DONE ALL OF THESE TRANSCRIPTIONS AND WORKING ON THEM, HOW DO YOU GO TO THE NEXT STEP AND BREAK FREE TO START CREATING YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL VOICE AND STYLE?
That is the key question; that is the challenge.
I hear a lot of players that sound good and can play the changes, but they sound like they are just regurgitating licks.
I think the solution is a lot of listening; listening live is important, too.
I’m fortunate, as because I grew up in the East in Connecticut I had access to New York. I’ve been coming to New York since high school to hear cats play. I’d go to Smalls, or Alfie’s or Smoke all the time.
Even now I make it a point to go out and hear people play in order to listen to and observe the creative process in action.
I think that is a great way to transition from just playing licks and phrases to making music. Just seeing great musicians make art in the moment.
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“Even now I make it a point to go out and hear people play in order to listen to and observe the creative process in action”
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IT’S OBVIOUS THAT SOMEONE TAUGHT YOU WELL. WHAT DID YOUR PARENTS INCULCATE IN YOU TO HAVE THIS ATTITUDE OF WANTING TO EXPLORE, LEARN AND GROW? OR WAS THERE SOMEONE ELSE?
Interesting question.
I was raised by a strong single mother. She instilled basic values in me.
She worked a lot. She wasn’t home a lot when I was home. So, a lot of things I had to learn by myself.
It all goes back to the first thing that I said about just listening. The only way I knew how to figure things out was by looking at other people doing things around me and just listening to what they were saying and doing, and then make a decision as to which direction I was going to follow.
I think that just being open-minded, trying to pay attention and listen. I have to give my mother credit for that. Being ready to accept the different scenarios around me.
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“I actually took a year and intentionally on my own not listen to a saxophone player”
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IS THERE ANY RELIGION, PHILOSOPHY OR BOOK THAT HAS GUIDED YOU IN YOUR LIFE?
One that comes to my head is the Dao De Djing and the Buddhist philosophies are big with me.
I remember that Herbie Hancock was always talking about it. I actually chanted a bit with Herbie when we were travelling, and that helps put me into a certain head space.
I’ve always been inspired by W.E.B. DeBoise’s The Soul of Black Folk, which I read when I was very young.
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I think the solution is a lot of listening; listening live is important, too…even now I make it a point to go out and hear people play in order to listen to and observe the creative process in action
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WHO IN WORLD HISTORY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SPEND AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
That’s a hard one, because if I say one name, I’ll immediately think of another one.
I hate to be one who’s not thinking outside of the box, but I think it would have to be Charlie Parker.
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“I hear a lot of players that sound good and can play the changes, but they sound like they are just regurgitating licks”
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WHO WOULD YOU PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
John Coltrane, for sure, with his Classic Quartet of Jimmy Garrison, McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones.
WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
Some of my future goals are finding a way to live in two places at once. I’d love to work more and teach more in Europe almost as much as I do here. I do travel both places now; I love to educate students in Europe as much as I do here.
DO THE EUROPEAN MUSICIANS RECEIVE YOUR TEACING DIFFERENTLY THAN THE AMERICAN ONES?
They appreciate it more in some ways. They seem to need it more; not that they are less capable, but they need someone who has spent time in the New York scene and in some of the circles that I have , and be over there to share that knowledge with them. I’d like to do that on a more regular basis.
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” The only way I knew how to figure things out was by looking at other people doing things around me and just listening to what they were saying and doing, and then make a decision as to which direction I was going to follow”
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Being around friends. Being with other musicians ,just playing and being on the road. That gives me the most joy.
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I want them to say the truth.
AS WAYNE ESCOFFERY STATES, EVERYONE OF US IS ON A PILGRIMAGE. OUR CAREERS INSIST ON IT IF WE WANT TO IMPROVE ON WHATEVER WE DO, BE IT AS A MUSICIAN, A MOTHER, A GARDENER OR WIDGET MAKER. WHAT WE DO REFLECTS OUR GROWTH AS PEOPLE, AND HOPEFULLY IT IS A REFLECTION OF OUR SPIRITUAL JOURNEY AS WELL.
LIKE ALL PILGRIMS, ESCOFFERY HAS LEARNED FROM HIS MASTERS, BECOMING A MASTER IN HIMSELF. CATCH HIM ON HIS NEXT JOURNEY IN YOUR TOWN.