IF THERE IS ANY DRUMMER THAT PERSONIFIES THE FIRE OF FUSION, IT HAS TO BE BILLY COBHAM. BEST KNOWN AS THE INCEDIARY ENGINE BEHIND THE MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA, COBHAM WAS ALSO THE “HOUSE DRUMMER” FOR COUNTLESS LEGENDARY CTI SESSIONS OF THE 60s AND 70s, HEARD ON CLASSIC ALBUMS BY STANLEY TURRENTINE, GEORGE BENSON AND FREDDIE HUBBARD, TO NAME JUST A FEW.
WE HAD A CHANCE TO CHECK IN WITH MR. COBHAM, WHO, LIKE THE TEACHER THAT HE IS, GAVE AN EDUCATIONAL HALF HOUR OF CONVERSATION…
YOU USED TO COME TO CSUN TO PERIODICALLY DO DRUM WORKSHOPS. YOU’VE BEEN TEACHING FOR 50 YEARS
Louis Bellson and I did stuff there.
Louis was my mentor.
We go back…let’s see…how many arguments did I have with (Louis’s wife) Pearl (Bailey)? (laugh). I have a headache just thinking about it. Just over things like cooking food.
She and my mother were real close personal friends, and she’d poke at me all of the time, saying things like “you know how many people in the world are without food, and I’m serving you this food that you won’t eat?’
I’d tell her “I only wanted one helping”
“But you can’t have just one helping; you have to eat two!”
“But you didn’t tell me that I had to have such a big first one” And we’d go round and round.
WHAT HAS MOTIVATED YOU TO BE A TEACHER FOR SO LONG?
I feel that I was born to share information. I don’t consider myself a teacher. This isn’t something difficult.
For instance, there’s a drummer from long time ago who’s now deceased, Specs Powell. My dad took me to see him when I was about eight. Even then I wanted to be a teacher.
Dad told me “This is the guy who plays the drums on West Side Story” and I go up to him and he said “Show me how you play drums.”
Of course, I picked up the drumsticks the wrong way, and he said, “You don’t play drums like that.”
I then said “Why?”, and my father said “Because he said you shouldn’t play drums like that”.
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“The more that you know about what your instrument does and has done, where it came from, you’ll play it better”
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That stuck in my head. The “Why” was still there.
Specs asked “So, you can play drums right handed?” “Oh, I can do that too!”
Back then I could play drums both ways; I just felt more comfortable one way because my high hat was on my left so I didn’t want to play with my right hand all crooked, as it looked funny to me.
I didn’t understand that when you marched with the drum (which is the way that all of this started) you had to have your hands back over and crossed this certain way. It ***took me 50 years to realized that it’s because of what happened in the Civil War that I play drums this way. I never paid attention to it.
That brought up my realization as to how much the history plays in the level of excellence of any player. It all started to make more sense.
The more that you know about what your instrument does and has done, where it came from, you’ll play it better.
WHAT IS THE BIGGEST THING THAT YOU TRY TO CONVEY TO YOUR STUDENTS?
That you play for the love of it.
You play from the position of “This is something that I do; I live this!”
Why in God’s name would I try to force down your mouth a bunch of bullets when you just need oatmeal to survive? What’s the big deal?
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“you play for the love of it”
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So, when somebody says “I want you to teach me”, I ask them “What would you like me to teach you?”
They’ll say, “I want to play drums like you” and I’ll say “Are you sure?”
I tell them that it’s pretty simple.
“You want to learn to play fast? First you have to learn to play slow” (laughs)
When you were born, did you run out of your mom’s womb? Didn’t someone have to pull you out? Where you smoking a cigar and you just wanted to stay there, or did you want out?
If you don’t get that, you don’t want to be a musician. If you really want to play, you’ve got to stop and think about all of the things that it takes to get you from one point to the next.
It’s all very simple; it’s just that you have to teach yourself and your body to do connect one part to another. Like the leg bone is connected to the knee bone, until eventually all of these things start to work together.
You start walking, and then down the road you might just run, but it takes some time.
SO, DID YOU WAKE UP ONE DAY AND SAY “I AM GOING TO GET THE BEST AND FASTEST CHOPS AS I CAN AND SEE WHERE IT TAKES ME” OR DID YOU THINK “LET ME GO ON A MUSICAL PATH AND SEE WHAT I HAVE TO PLAY TO ACCOMPLISH IT”?
Not exactly in those words, but the second way.
I’m 77, so when I was growing up I was waking up and listening to WNEW, and was going to school listening to “Bebopa de boppa doo” (sings bebop drum line). My father’s smacking me and says “Wake up” and I’m snapping my fingers to Woody Herman. The bands were rocking, and I’m dancing to them as I put my school clothes on.
That’s what I was brought up with in Brooklyn, listening to Sinatra or Basie all day. All these different bands and singers.
Sammy Davis Jr was on, and then at some point in the day, my dad would switch (because we are a Caribbean/Latino family) Tito Puente and we’d start dancing in the house.
It was easy for me to slide from one thing to another. But one thing that we didn’t play (because of where we came from) was funk and soul. That was not us. We heard calypso, Latin and Afro-Cuban. We then heard American big band jazz.
I remember the first time we received in the mail a box of records from the Columbia Record Club. In there was Michel LeGrand, The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Take Five, Johnny Mathis… all this stuff he started playing. All the time, so that’s what I grew up knowing.
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“You want to learn to play fast? First you have to learn to play slow”
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IT SHOWS In YOUR EARLY MATERIAL AS YOU WERE ESSENTIALLY THE HOUSE DRUMMER FOR CTI RECORDS WITH STANLEY TURRENTINE, KENNY BURRELL AND GEORGE BENSON.
SO WHEN YOU GOT APPROACHED BY JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, DID HE TELL YOU THAT THE “MUSICAL TEMPLATE” WAS BEING CHANGED? OR DID YOU JUST “DROP IN”?
When it came to Miles, it was me calling him back after he’d left a message in my apartment to call back. Jack DeJohnette had told him about me.
This is 1969. I was working with (pianist) Junior Mance at the top of the Village Gate, and Miles was working in the room below with a new configuration that consisted of Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, Dave Holland and Jack. By then they had done a tour or two, and Jack had had enough and said that he wanted to do something on his own, which ended up being his trio with Keith Jarrett and Gary Peacock.
Right at that moment, while that was going on, bizarrely enough, Neil Armstrong was putting his foot on the moon. (laughs)
There’s a black and white television screen upstairs in the club. Running by me is Les McCann, Philly Joe Jones is hanging out by the bar, and he turns around and starts talking to Charles Mingus. All of these people are there at the same time, not to listen to us, but to Phil Woods’ new quartet with this revolutionary Swiss drummer, Daniel Humair.
This drummer got a pair of drum sticks, and he went to a woodworking place and had the guy cut the sticks one way in half, so he could play lightly with that one stick. He also had his bass drum facing the ceiling. The actual resonant head was facing the ceiling and he had the snare drum on top of it!
All of these different things were happening, and I’m thinking “This is crazy” when I hear on the television “One small step for man; one giant leap for mankind” and I thought “I’ll never forget this moment!”
So up the stairs comes Miles while I’m working with Junior Mance. In the back of my head I’m thinking “If I get into this band, is this really the route that I want to go?”
DID YOU THINK THAT THIS STYLE WAS GOING TO BE “TOO MUCH” FOR YOU, OR DID YOU THINK THAT IT WAS FANTASTICALLY NEW?
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“Size of the drum set is only important if it actually is in proportion to what is being played in that environment. If you have a bunch of drums, you had better know what to do with them”
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I was home.
I expected it all to just happen. Every day was a new day, and of course it wasn’t going to sound the same. I never even thought about that. It was like “here we go!”
I had just come back to the US from Europe where I had met a guitar player named John McLaughlin for the first time. He said, “I’m going to live uptown on Columbus and 77th St with Dave Holland”, and I thought that was cool, as it was a community up there, as I was in Greenwich Village.
The next thing you know, Grady Tate called me and asked what I was doing, and if I could fill in for him for a date for Quincy Jones.
I went over there and they were doing a soundtrack for Sean Connery. On that date was four guitarists-McLaughlin, Eric Gale, Jim Hall and Oscar Peterson’s guitarist along with the usual suspects like Ernie Royal. I played the first session.
The next thing I know as I come out of the studio, John says “You free this week?” and I said, “I’m around, just on J street” as I was good to play whatever that was happening .
I’d play on J Street, I’d go to Jim and Andy’s on 54th, because that’s where everybody hung out, waiting to see what Mel Lewis or Grady Tate would drop, and you had to be in place in case something happened, and you’d go to fill in. They were unbelievably busy with so many commitments. That’s how I got into the studios.
Next thing you know, John calls me over and says “I’m going to be at Baggie’s in the Village, where you could rent a place for nothing, and we started working on stuff”
JAN HAMMER SAID THAT MCLAUGHLIN TOLD HIM THAT HE WANTED TO FORM THE BEST ROCK GROUP AROUND. DID HE TELL YOU ANYTHING LIKE THAT?2002
He just came and asked if I could help me with his band. But check this out- we’re playing together between 7-10 days and there was no keyboard player, bass player or violinist.
So after these days, enter (violinist) Jerry Goodman, and the next thing you know, we’re recording with (bassist) Charlie Haden and Jerry at Electric Ladyland, recording My Goals Beyond.
I’M ALWAYS AMAZED THAT MOST MUSICIANS NEVER REALIZE AT THE TIME THAT THEY AREN’T AWARE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF A CERTAIN ALBUM THAT THEY ARE MAKING. DID YOU FEEL THERE WAS ANYTHING SPECIAL GOING ON WITH JOHN, AND YOU WERE STARTING A WHOLE NEW GENRE?
People ask me that question, and I’m surprised that I didn’t think of it myself. I was just enjoying myself.
I talked to John a little bit when I came over to Europe with him, and he said, “This is just what we do”.
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“I learned a long time ago from Rudy (Van Gelder), “Just shut up and play with whatever (Herbie’s) doing over there.” That’s it-I got it.”
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THE LINK BETWEEN A BASSIST AND DRUMMER IS ESSENTIAL, SO WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A BASSIST? DO YOU HAVE A COMFORT FOOD WITH THEM, OR A PET PEEVE?
That’s a wonderful question.
The upside, is that when I find a bass player that I like, it’s then difficult to play with that bass player because he’s never available anymore. (laughs) Ask Ron Carter!
When we play together, and we played on record dates all of the time, it was because we were a “fit”. I’d be asked to do a record at Rudy’s (Van Gelder studio), and I wouldn’t even ask who the bass player was. I’d be surprised if the keyboard player wasn’t Herbie (Hancock), Roland Hanna, Richard Wyans, Don Sebesky (if he was arranging) or Emir Deodato. Sometimes out of the blue would come Keith Jarrett, and I’d think “What’s this all about? It’s going to be fun!” Or Herbie would come in to fill all the gaps.
I learned a long time ago from Rudy, “Just shut up and play with whatever (Herbie’s) doing over there.” That’s it-I got it.
DO YOU PLAY DIFFERENTLY IF THE BASSIST PLAYS ACOUSTIC OR ELECTRIC?
Yes, because the only acoustic bassist that I’ve actually played with for all of those sessions was Ron Carter. He was the only one, and when he’d play electric I hated it. It was like “what is that?” Where was Chuck Raney or Alphonso Johnson? That’s the electric bass that I want!
YOU’RE KNOWN FOR HAVING A GIGANTIC DRUM SET FOR YOUR FUSION ALBUMS.2512 HOW IMPORTANT IS THE DRUM SET SIZE FOR PERFORMANCE?
Size of the drum set is only important if it actually is in proportion to what is being played in that environment. If you have a bunch of drums, you had better know what to do with them. Each of those drums have a tonal characters; the represent what you are speaking.
If you have nothing to say, why, in God’s name do you have all of those drums up there?
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“If you have nothing to say, why, in God’s name do you have all of those drums up there?”
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WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR IN A DRUMMER?
Sincerity. Where are they coming from? How do they make me feel secure?
When I’m sitting there and listening to somebody who is playing with a whole lot of drums-ok, cool, but my eyes are closed. I don’t need to see the drummer; I have them in my mind.
I want to know “what are you going to say to me?” Drumming is a language.
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“I want to know “what are you going to say to me?” Drumming is a language”
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WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR MOST CHALLENGING GIG OR RECORDING?
Working on The Big Blue Ball with Peter Gabriel, primarily because it called for an extreme level of discrimination in regards to what sounded when.
The Last Temptation of Christ was another one. This fool put me in a rain silo on his property to record a full set of the most exotic wood drums. He put out the whole drum set and said “just play the drums” even though the cymbals were all there. That was challenging-I’m NOT supposed to play the cymbals on this drum set, but I can play everything else.
He goes on to tell me the story of this Merovingian king, and Jesus Christ being on the cross, and Mary Magdelene kneeling in front of Him and being like the devil, saying “You’re in pain, and I can make it go away if you just nod your head. You can then just be a regular guy and live until a ripe old age with a bunch of kids, etc”
I’m playing along to this, and Jesus suddenly nods his head and is taken away to the mountains with a thousand kids around him, but He’s not happy. So He wants to be transported back to the cross to be killed.
All of these things are happening and I’m supposed to by playing the drums and not hit any cymbals. Go figure!
So I’m doing my thing and having a ball until the very end and my hands just came up in front of my and WHACK, I had to hit one. It’s still there on the movie.
THIS SHOWS YOUR VERSATILITY. YOU’RE KNOWN AS A “FUSION GUY”, BUT YOU’RE ON MOVIES AND ROBERTA FLACK ALBUMS. DO YOU COME WITH DIFFERENT MIND SETS FOR THESE DIFFERENT SETTINGS?
Joel Dorn is one of my favorite producers, and he came together with my other favorite, Arif Mardin on Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway. Can you imagine who’s on this thing? You have Eric Gale playing bass, and Joe Zawinul is on piano. Hello?
It was like a whole band was playing down the street with Aretha Franklin and just popped up for Roberta’s album. (laughs) I was ridiculously over the moon about doing that recording for Roberta and Donna.
One thing I did learn from all of my mentors is that you play for the people for which you are working. You don’t play who you are first; you play for the combination of what the group represents together.
I was taught that a long time ago by Clark Terry and Jackie McLean. All of these guys told me, “Idiot! What are you doing, playing so loud?!? There’s a time and a place for that. Now’s the time for love.” Eventually that becomes a habit.
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“All of these guys told me, ‘Idiot! What are you doing, playing so loud?!? There’s a time and a place for that. Now’s the time for love.'”
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IT’S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A TEACHABLE SPIRIT, OTHERWISE EVERYONE WOULD KNOW THIS.
DO YOU HAVE A PHILOSOPHY, RELIGION OR BELIEF SYSTEM THAT WAS INCULCATED TO YOU THAT GAVE YOU THIS TEACHABLE ATTITUDE?
My mentors are behind me all the time. You just can’t see them.
I always hear somebody telling me “play for the music. The music says ‘this’” It’s an umbrellam meaning many different things, dynamically, phrasing, velocity, sensitivity and how you play sensitively, how you play to support.
Although I’ve had very, very little instrumental work with singers, I’ve listened a lot, ****and what I’ve never heard Roy Haynes do with Sarah Vaughan is to play over her. That would be sacrilege!
On the other side of that, the one thing that I heard that was done at the Village Vanguard too often for Bill Evans was the tinkling of the glasses and all of that by the customers. So why would I do that with the drums? There’s a message right there.
When I played “Someday, My Prince Will Come” in 2004 with Ron Carter, James Williams and Donald Harrison at the Paris Jazz Festival to 7,000 people, they stood up and started to cry. It was like “we’re so glad you’re here!” That was a salute. Forget the money; that was where we wanted to be.
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“you play for the people for which you are working. You don’t play who you are first; you play for the combination of what the group represents together”
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GIVE ME A LIST OF 3 BOOKS THAT YOU’D LIKE EVERYONE TO READ
I won’t go political, so we’re good. (laughs)
Read Lord of the Rings. Read about Harriet Beecher Stowe. Read one called The New Jim Crow. You read it and you say “OK, now I understand”, but it also brings up more questions, so there you go, that’s what it’s all about. The more you understand, the more that questions come.
IS THERE ANY RELIGIOUS OR PHILOSOPHICAL CREED THAT YOU ADHERE TO?
Not directly.
I feel very strongly inclined to support Buddhism. I like the feeling of it; not to disrespect it, but not the rambling on of it. I don’t need to go “Nami Ho Ringe Kyo”. It’s just not me. But I really respect the people who do it.
My religion is common sense. If it’s a good thing, why is it a good thing? Let me stop and think about this for a minute. People tell me that I’m real slow, but there’s a reason for that: I don’t understand it! So, let me just hold off for a minute and let me figure out why it is the way it is.
Especially in the business which I call “my business”, the entertainment business. If you move too fast, you’re in trouble. It’s nobody’s fault but your own. You’re the one who decided “I need to do this right now” because of so and so, and “they need to do this for me” and the next thing you know, you have nothing.
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“My mentors are behind me all the time. You just can’t see them”
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WHO IN WORLD HISTORY WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE OVER FOR AN EVENING AND PICK THEIR BRAIN?
For some bizarre reason, because of how she arrived at what she’s done, I would love to sit down for more than one day and just chat with Joni Mitchell. “How did you do that?” Those compositions, and what she’s talking about…where’s all that coming from?!? It’s just so amazing.
I feel so incredibly ignorant of being able to say “Oh, I see where you’re coming from and why you did this”, and she is someone I’d love to help me figure it out.
Another thing that I would love to understand, if I could just get it, is why musicians and artists are afraid and had to take drugs to do their work. What was missing? Where are they coming from that they felt that they had to do this?
I took one toke of marijuana, once. I was in NY, and I got into my Buick and had to go to Englewood, New Jersey, and to this day I don’t know how I got across the George Washington Bridge.
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“The more you understand, the more that questions come”
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WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
That I was a different drummer. You can put on my tombstone that I was a maverick.
WHAT GIVES YOU THE BIGGEST JOY?
To see a young person (in mind or body) who’s actually doing something that I told them to do.
They’ll say “I want to learn how to play the drums”, so I’ll say “This is how you hold the sticks”. They do it, and say “That’s it?” And they’re on their way.
ONE OF THE PLEASURES OF JAZZ IS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO STILL WTINESS IN CONCERT THE ARTISTS THAT ACTUALLY BEGAN A MUSICAL MOVEMENT. BILLY COBHAM IS ONE OF OUR HISTORICAL FIGURES, A FACE ON THE FUSION MT. RUSHMORE, BUT STILL ALIVE, WELL AND SWINGING.