IF THE LEGENDARY BLUE NOTE RECORD LABEL HAD AN ‘IN-HOUSE’ DRUMMER, IT HAD TO BE JOE CHAMBERS. MR. CHAMBERS IS THE PULSE AND DRIVE ON MANY A CLASSIC SESSION, PLAYING ALONGSIDE FREDDIE HUBBARD (BREAKING THROUGH), WAYNE SHORTER (ET CETERA), BOBBY HUTCHERSON (DIALOGUE) AND ANDREW HILL (COMPULSION), TO NAME JUST A FEW.
SINCE THOSE HALCYON DAYS, CHAMBERS HAS BEEN THE LEADER OF SOME CREATIVE AND IMAGINATIVE ALBUMS, BROADENING HIS RANGE BY PLAYING VARIOUS SORTS OF MALLETS, ALONG SIDE MAX ROACH IN THE UNIQUE M’BOOM AS WELL HIS MOST RECENT, SAMBA DE MARACATU IN WHICH CHAMBERS PLAYS VIBES, CLAVE, GUIRO, SURDO AND OTHER PERCUSSIVE INSTRUMENTS.
IRONICALLY, THIS MOST RECENT ALBUM ON BLUE NOTE IS HIS FIRST AS A LEADER FOR THAT ALBUM, WITH THE ICONIC MUSICIAN COMING FULL CIRCLE.
MR. CHAMBERS WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO SPEND SOME TIME PUTTING HIS CAREER, AND HIS CRAFT, INTO PERSPECTIVE.
PRESENTLY, YOUR CAREER IS BEING BOOKENDED WITH ALBUMS ON BLUE NOTE RECORDS
I didn’t plan it that way (chuckles)
I was with Blue Note way back, in the 1960s, the “Golden Years” . I was the “house percussionist and drummer” .
Blue Note then changed. The original CEO, Alfred Lions sold it and made a deal with United Artists in the 70s. At about that time I had no association with them; they eventually ended up with Bruce Lundvall, and I did a record with them back in ’98 (Mirrors) by way of Michael Cuscuna. They then did a multi-corporate thing with Universal as the parent company.
Have you ever heard of Udiscover Music? They put out Blue Note material, and a couple of years ago they called me because of all of the records I did. They did a nice article.
I then called up (producer) Don Was, and he said “I know you; I’d be glad to do something.” Boom-that’s where we are today.
HOW DID YOU BECOME BLUE NOTE’S “HOUSE DRUMMER”?
It was just an opportunity to get involved with Blue Note after I moved to New York in ’63. I just started getting calls.
Eric Dolphy did a recording called Out To Lunch. He invited me to it; I wasn’t even on the date. The drummer was Tony Williams, but he told me to come and to bring music. What he was doing was setting me up.
I brought in the tune “Mirrors” and he looked at it. “I like this” he said, and the rest is history.
Freddie Hubbard started a band, we did a recording of Breaking Point, and I then just started getting calls. No plan, nothing. They just started calling me.
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“I brought in the tune “Mirrors” and (Eric Dolphy) looked at it. “I like this” he said, and the rest is history
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WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST BLUE NOTE SESSION LIKE?
The first situation was with Freddie Hubbard, Breaking Point. It was my first recording, period.
The way Blue Note went about their recording business was that you would rehearse for 4-5 days in a week. A minimum of four, and then you’d go right into the studio.
People always ask me if these were “working bands”, and the fact is that a lot of them were not working bands. Freddie’s was a working band, but a lot of them sounded like working bands because we rehearsed for those 4-5 days and then went right into the studio for every recording. So, we sounded very tight. That’s how we did every date that I was on.
Hubbard was with Art Blakey, and was the rising trumpet star. When I came to town Freddie called me and wanted to get a fresh start and a new sound. He called me and James Spaulding. The thing about that was that we had about 6 weeks of work, as we still had the clubs, and then went right in and recorded.
YOUR FIRST SESSIONS WERE WITH ANDREW HILL, ERIC DOLPHY, FREDDIE HUBBARD AND BOBBY HUTCHERSON. THAT WAS QUITE A BAPTISM. THOSE DID YOU EVER FEEL THAT YOU WERE OVER YOUR HEAD WITH THESE COMPLEX CHARTS?
No. It was nothing like that. I would say that with Andrew Hill, his writing and arranging was kind of way out. It was kind of Monkish. His compositions were involved and tricky, but it still was no big deal. If you have those 4-5 days rehearsal, you can get it down.
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“The budget that you’re given dictates what you’re going to do. The budget dictates the format, and you take it from there.” (chuckles)
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WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR MOST CHALLENGING GIG OR SESSION?
Working with Charlie Mingus and the Charlie Mingus Orchestra, because of his compositions and he himself. His music, as a side musician, reading and interpreting, was challenging.
WHAT WERE YOUR SESSIONS WITH WAYNE SHORTER LIKE? WHAT DID YOU GLEAN FROM HIM?
I did about five recordings with him. Wayne was then becoming, and has now become, one of the front runners of jazz composers and arrangers. He is definitely that.
Wayne wasn’t “challenging” like Mingus in terms of concentration. The music for me was completely comfortable to interpret.
ONE OF THE GREAT ASPECTS OF YOUR PLAYING IS YOUR UNIQUE LIGHT TOUCH. WAS IT SOMETHING YOU CONSCIOUSLY DEVELOPED?
I never even thought about it. That’s just the way I felt. You talk about touch; that’s just the way I felt and played it.
YOU PLAY DRUMS, VIBES, PERCUSSION AND PIANO. DID PIANO INFLUENCE YOUR DRUMMING?
First of all, I’m not a pianist; I play a little piano, what is called “arranger piano”.
Every good musician plays some piano, and I’m one of those. I wouldn’t call myself a pianist; when I lived in DC I played piano every Sunday matinee at a club down there. I tried once to get serious about it, but I got completely discouraged by it. (laughs)
I have drum students now who want to learn how to be like me and learn music theory. The first thing I tell them to do is to get a Hanon book and read some Bach. To play the piano you’ve got to get some skill, play some scales and know your way around. It’s not like you’re trying to be a Horowitz, but you’ve still got to be able to get around the piano. You can then start looking into the chords for the music that you’re interested in.
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“Every good musician plays some piano, and I’m one of those… I tried once to get serious about it, but I got completely discouraged by it” (laughs)
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TENOR SAXIST BEN WEBSTER PLAYED A MEAN PIANO ON SOME OF HIS RECORDINGS.
It’s the same concept.
I did a piano record a few years ago. I had enough skill to do a solo, but it wasn’t like it was earth shaking.
WHEN YOU WATCH A DRUMMER, WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR?
Before I answer that, I want to tell you something.
I don’t consider myself a “drummer” these days. I’m not into drums anymore like before. I’m a composer now, and a mallet player. I consider myself a former drummer, but I now play the mallets.
There are a lot of reasons for that.
I was playing the piano and mallets for Max Roach’s M’Boom, so I got into that to expand. A lot of people who just play drums are content with that, but I’m not content with just playing drums.
I wanted to reach the complete elements of music, to be able to express myself. That’s where I’m at, to get the harmonic and melodic expression out of the instrument. I’m not content to just sit behind the drums. That’s the aesthetic reason.
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“I don’t consider myself a ‘drummer’ these days. I’m not into drums anymore like before. I’m a composer now, and a mallet player. I consider myself a former drummer, but I now play the mallets”
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The other reason is a political reason. The drums are the enemy. I wrote a paper why drums are the enemy. They are the enemy in this culture; they always have been.
DID YOUR TIME WITH MAX ROACH AND M’BOOM CHANGE YOUR OPINION OF THE DRUMS?
It did not come from my being with Max Roach; I learned a lot of other things from him.
It came from years of studying, living and experiencing the situation with drums. I wrote a paper on it when I was teaching at the University (at the New School for Jazz and Contemporary Music). A lot of people don’t understand it.
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“The drums are the enemy. I wrote a paper why drums are the enemy. They are the enemy in this culture; they always have been”
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ARE THERE ANY DRUMMERS THAT YOU LIKE?
There are some drummers that I like, believe it or not. I’ve always said that I was always trying to be like Max Roach, overall. For sound, I wanted to sound like Philly Joe Jones, or Elvin Jones.
That’s who I wanted to sound like, but I wanted to be like Max Roach. He was the model. Max was doing stuff with symphony orchestras and with a choir, string quartets, and he created M’Boom. He was extremely creative, inventive and way out front. And, he wrote music, so that put him apart. He was writing and composing all of the time. He was the person to model after.
I wanted to sound like Philly Joe Jones and Elvin Jones. To me, Elvin Jones is the epitome of jazz clave’, or jazz swing, as we call it.
You remember Pete LaRoca? I like him. I always liked the stuff that Tony Williams was doing, but Pete really had something going for him. He was actually a timbale player; he played Latin and had those sensibilities and knowledge, and brought it to jazz.
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“Elvin Jones is the epitome of jazz clave’, or jazz swing, as we call it”
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THEREFORE, FOR YOUR LATEST ALBUM IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO PLAY ALL OF THESE OTHER INSTRUMENTS LIKE VIBES, MARIMBA AND BRAZILIAN PERCUSSION
It was like the thing that Bill Evans did with the there pianos (Conversations with Myself)
But I’m going to tell you about another aspect.
The budget that you’re given dictates what you’re going to do. The budget dictates the format, and you take it from there. (chuckles)
Aesthetically, I wanted to do it that way anyway, and I did it before, but it was still dictated by the budget that you’re given. “What am I going to do with this budget?” I can’t get three horns for the album, as the budget dictates.
Aesthetically, it was something I was interested in doing, as I did Landscapes for Savant in 2013, but that also had a budget that dictated it, so I could do that one. I was capable of doing that one, as I’m capable of doing this new one.
I can lay down all of the tracks of the rhythm section and become the lead instrument so I can play the ensembles and solos as a mallet player.
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“I’ve always said that I was always trying to be like Max Roach, overall. For sound, I wanted to sound like Philly Joe Jones, or Elvin Jones”
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IT MUST HAVE BEEN A JOY FOR YOU TO DO THE MOVING PICTURES ORCHESTRA ALBUM
Yeah, that’s another story. I did The Moving Pictures Orchestra when I was fully employed as a Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, where I now live. Being a Distinguished Professor, you get a professor’s salary, so I could do that album easily and bring in 20 pieces. I could back it up with money.
I liked the Orchestra and the big pieces. I like playing the drums behind myself, especially because it was all my arrangements.
IN RETROSPECT, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR TOURING WITH ERIC DOLPHY?
I was living in Washington DC from ’60-63 , and we played in a place called The Bohemian Cavern. Back in those days, even when I first got in New York, the very first job I got..well, you got long term gigs. In other words, I worked at Minton’s playhouse for the summer of ’64 with Blue Mitchell and Chick Corea. We worked about 2-3 months; that’s the way you worked back in those days.
After Mintons, I worked two months at The Five Spot,
So, Eric came down to where I was working at The Bohemian Caverns, and we had a group with Andy White. We invited Eric down, and he worked three weeks with us. When I moved to New York that September, he was my first contact. He assembled a band consisting of himself, Freddie Hubbard, Richard Davis, Bobby Hutcherson and myself. We did a big concert at BAM, the Brooklyn Academy of Music. The next thing I knew, he was recording for Blue Note, and that’s when he invited me to bring music. He was setting me up with them.
That’s how I see it now. Back then, there weren’t any drummers bringing music, except Max Roach. No drummer that I knew was handing out music.
Reggie Workman reminded me of a fellow named James Black, from New Orleans. He came to New York around the same time that I did, and he was writing music for Yusef Lateef. The point is that there were really no (or very few) drummers writing music at the time.
Not even Tony Williams. He was in awe when I brought in the music for Eric, and later on he started writing proficiently.
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“Back then, there weren’t any drummers bringing music, except Max Roach. No drummer that I knew was handing out music”
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TELL ME ABOUT YOUR TIME WITH MCCOY TYNER
To me, McCoy Tyner was the number one out-front pianist in the modern era post-Red Garland Era. Piano skills, harmonics, knowledge and skill of harmonies and movement, and more than anything, DRIVE!
McCoy Tyner was the one that was driving that band with Coltrane. People will say that it was Elvin (Jones), but McCoy Tyner was stronger than any drummer. I found that out when I played with him. (Chuckles)
Elvin had a nice touch, but when I played with McCoy I found out. Coltrane didn’t play everything hard and driving, but they did have a hard pulse, and it was McCoy Tyner driving that band.
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“McCoy Tyner was the one that was driving that band with Coltrane. People will say that it was Elvin (Jones), but McCoy Tyner was stronger than any drummer. I found that out when I played with him” (Chuckles)
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THERE SEEMS TO BE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DRUMMERS (OR MALLET PLAYERS) AND BASSISTS. WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A BASSIST?
There is a school of bass playing that I call “The Detroit School”. It consists of Oscar Pettiford, Doug Watkins, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Garrison, Ron Carter, …that is the style of bass playing. When you’re playing pulsated music. They have those long tones, between note to note. That’s the bass player that plays what I call “The Magic Carpet”. That’s Ron Carter; he’s taken up the mantel from Paul Chambers . Jimmy Garrison played like that; that’s why he was one of the few bassists that could play with Elvin Jones
That school has those long tones that makes it easier for a drummer to swing. If you’re playing cymbals, they’ll give you The Magic Carpet to play on. (laughs)
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“That (bass) school has those long tones that makes it easier for a drummer to swing. If you’re playing cymbals, they’ll give you The Magic Carpet to play on
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SO, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN, WHAT CAN A BASSIST DO THAT IRRITATES A DRUMMER?
You’re talking about pulsating music. It’s not “time”. People talk about “time”, but you don’t play “time”, you play “pulse”. So, the thing that most drummers want is that long tone of a magic carpet feel. You don’t like the short tones, the “tch, tch tch”.
WHAT THREE BOOKS HAVE INFLUENCED YOU A LOT AND WOULD YOU LIKE EVERYONE TO READ?
I read a lot of Kemetic studies. It’s from ancient Egypt. Kemetic is the indigenous name. These types of books are not for everybody. After that, they can read on for themselves. (laughs)
WHO IN WORLD HISTORY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH FOR AN EVENING AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
I think Piankhi. He was a Pharoah of the 25th Dynasty. He overthrough the occupying people of the territory. I’d like to pick his brain.
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I don’t think about things like that.
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” People talk about ‘time’, but you don’t play ‘time’, you play ‘pulse’.”.
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WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Playing music is a great joy, when it’s done properly and the feeling is there. That’s a great joy.
ANY MORE GOALS?
I always try to keep creating. I want to keep writing. I want to write more music. I want to write for an orchestra, a symphony, and also a jazz orchestra. I’d like to do a piece with an orchestra. I did something with The Kennedy Center in 2019 with an orchestra and the percussion group M’Boom. I’d like to do that again, or something with Nubian musicians. Maybe a suite with a jazz orchestra and Nubian musicians. There’s a cadre of Nubian musicians in DC, so I’d like to do something with them. I’d like to combine jazz orchestra with them. I’d like to create a theater piece with some dancers and make a production of it.
AT 81 YEARS YOUNG, JOE CHAMBERS IS STILL FORGING NEW PATHS OF MUSIC. TAKING THE TRADITION OF MUSIC BACK FROM THE DAYS OF THE PHAROAHS, HE IS BRINGING THE SOUNDS OF HIS FOREFATHERS INTO THE 21ST CENTURY AND BEYOND, LINKING TIMES AND PULSES.