ONE OF THE GREAT ASPECTS OF MUSIC IS THAT ONE CAN ACTUALLY GO AND SEE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CREATED A GENRE OF MUSIC.
IMAGINE THE THRILL I HAD SEEING EARL HINES, THE CREATOR OF MODERN JAZZ, OR COUNT BASIE, THE ORIGINATOR OF KANSAS CITY SWING, OR BENNY GOODMAN, THE “KING OF SWING”.
THESE DAYS IT IS NO DIFFERENT. WITH THE PASSING OF CHICK COREA, WE LOST ONE OF THE PROGENITORS OF FUSION, WHILE WE STILL HAVE HERBIE HANCOCK AND WAYNE SHORTER TO GIVE US BLESSINGS OF MODERN JAZZ.
BASSIST, SINGER AND COMPOSER CHRIS HILLMAN IS A MAN WHO WAS ON THE GROUND FLOOR OF CREATING A STYLE OF MUSIC THAT WE ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED THESE DAYS, NAMELY “COUNTRY ROCK”.
THE CATALOGUE OF MUSIC HE HAS PRODUCED IS FILLED WITH RICH AND CREATIVE VOCAL HARMONIES, ORIGINAL ARRANGEMENTS AND SWINGING SOLOS.
HILLMAN HAS RECENTLY WRITTEN A BOOK, TITLED TIME BETWEEN: MY LIFE AS A BYRD, BURRITO BROTHER AND BEYOND, IN WHICH HE GIVES US A PERSONAL BACKGROUND AND INSIGHT AS TO THE FORMATION OF THIS ESSENTIAL MUSIC.
WE RECENTLY HAD A CHANCE TO TALK WITH MR. HILLMAN, WHO HAVE EXTRA INSIGHT AND DIMENSION TO HIS BOOK AS WELL AS HIS MUSIC.
HOW ARE YOU DOING WITH THE LOCKDOWN
We never truly ‘locked down’; we go wherever we want to go, but I’ve also enjoyed just being at home. My old bandmate Roger McGuinn didn’t leave for months! I think he left for one gig about a month ago.
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS TIME IN YOUR LIFE TO WRITE THIS BOOK, AND WHAT DID YOU WANT TO CONVEY?
Well, it wasn’t to get rich. (laughs)
I really started writing it down for our two kids. Prior to the actual publishing of it I had grandkids come along, so in a sense I was leaving to them “Here’s what Papu did”. That was what I was first going to do.
There were also a couple things that had already been written about The Byrds and The Flying Burrito Brothers that I felt were not accurate. I just started writing it as I remembered things. I was working on it for 6-7 years on kind of a daily basis, but it was then just sitting on the shelf as a completed manuscript, quite large!
I said to (my wife) Connie “I think we should find an agent to see if anyone’s interested” or I’ll just print a couple copies for the kids.
I met Scott Bomar from BMG, who heads up publishing. He said “I hear you’re writing a book. Can I read some of it?”
I sent him a couple of chapters, and he called me back and said “Let’s talk. We want to publish this book.”
I told him I wasn’t going to write a “Led Zeppelin meets the Rolling Stones” kind of thing; it’s not who I am.
He said “We don’t want that kind of book, and we don’t want a co-writer either. You write really well.”
So we made this deal, and I proceed to re-write it, eliminating a lot of the excess. My wife Connie had some great editing ideas, like “why don’t you embellish on this session a bit?”
My daughter did the first edit; she’s an English Lit teacher and she was merciless. I’d be in the process of writing and would put in some dumb cliché such as “It was like heaven on earth” and she’d take the red pen out and go “Uh Uh…no cliché’s”, and then she’d clean up the grammar. She was great. She said at one point “I actually counted 200 exclamation points, dad. I think that’s unnecessary”
Scott Bomar came up with the idea of opening up the book with the story of the fire in our house in 2017, where we had to evacuate. I really enjoyed the whole process of putting the book together.
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“It’s not a biography, it’s a memoir. I joked with my friends that you don’t need a dictionary to read this book”
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HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO WRITING A SONG?
I don’t know. Sometimes I think that writing a song is harder. But then you’re using a repetitive chorus that eliminates a lot of work. It’s similar, but it’s not similar.
It’s not a biography, it’s a memoir. I joked with my friends that you don’t need a dictionary to read this book. That line may be what William Faulkner said about Hemingway. Hemingway wrote in a minimalist way, but it was a good way. I tried to keep it as a conversation, as if we were driving across country and I’m telling you what happened.
HOW HAS THE REACTION BEEN?
I’m getting wonderful comments. “What a great read” “I read it in two days” etc. I didn’t anticipate this at all
AND IT SHOWS THAT YOU MARRIED A GREEK, AS IT’S A FAMILY AFFAIR. MOM’S IN THE KITCHEN, THE DAUGHTER’S AT THE REGISTER, AND THE DAD IS SITTING AND SCHMOOZING
Exactly! And my daughter’s looking at the script and saying “Oxi” (“No”)! laughs
ONE ASPECT OF MUSIC THAT I LOVE IS WHEN SOMEONE CREATES SOMETHING NEW, LIKE DIZZY AND BIRD WITH BEBOP. ARMSTRONG JAZZ ITSELF, OR MILES AND FUSION. YOU’RE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE THAT TOOK PART IN CREATING A NEW KIND OF MUSIC, NAMELY “COUNTRY ROCK”.
DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU WERE STARTING SOMETHING NEW WHEN YOU WERE DOING IT?
No, not at all, and here comes the first cliché’ “we were all playing from following our heart”, but it was true.
For me, I would just try to play and get close enough to what I really loved in music. The Byrds didn’t have a plan or a blue print. We didn’t know what we were doing initially. We were going for good material, and we developed a sound, by hook or crook.
But I’ve got to tell you something: we were so into jazz and all of those eclectic things. When we were first on tour, it was one of those Dick Clark “Caravan Of Stars” tours with Paul Revere and the Raiders, Bo Diddley and The Byrds, etc.
At the time we had a huge hit with “Turn, Turn, Turn”, and so the other acts were on the “bad” tour bus. We made a little demand to get a nicer motor home, which we got.
Roger McGuinn brought along a record player, and here’s what we listened to on the road: Coltrane, Eric Dolphy and Miles Davis.
Miles Davis got us our record deal, and we didn’t even know him! He did us a big favor.
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“Roger McGuinn brought along a record player, and here’s what we listened to on the road: Coltrane, Eric Dolphy and Miles Davis”
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HOW DID HE DO THAT?
When we did get a hold of “Mr. Tambourine Man” after getting permission to use it from Bob Dylan, we first did a demo of it. We then cut it with session guys for the first and only time, as the Columbia people wanted to hedge their bet and have the very best players on it, which was fine.
Initially, our manager took the demo of “Mr. Tambourine Man” that we had done, and went over to a friend’s house, Benny Shapiro, who owned a jazz club in LA, The Renaissance. Right on the Sunset Strip. He told Benny “I’m working with these kids; what do you think of them?” and he puts our tape on.
Benny Shapiro’s daughter, all of 13 is upstairs and hears it. She runs down and says “Dad! Who is that band? I love it!” Benny then says to our manager “That’s good enough for me. Let me make a call.”
He calls Miles Davis, who was a close friend of his. Miles Davis said he’d call the president of Columbia Records. He did, saying “Give these guys a break, they swing!” He hadn’t really heard us, but he did a favor for a friend, who’s daughter was the one who liked us.
So you never know! One day we were goofing around the studio, and someone started playing “Milestones” and we actually cut it, and it’s on an album somewhere.
We were very much into jazz, especially the Coltrane stuff. I must tell you: The Byrds’ song “Eight Miles High” starts with a bass figure that we took from John Coltrane’s “A Love Supreme”. I got the idea for our bass line listening to Coltrane, that “buh bu-dah bu-dah”.
My family loved music and had great taste, they were always playing Basie, Ellington, Peggy Lee, Ella Fitzgerald and I got it from osmosis.
Nowadays I listen to the station with Sinatra and the serious jazz stations more than anything else. People assume I only listen to country and blue grass, but not so.
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” The Byrds didn’t have a plan or a blue print. We didn’t know what we were doing initially. We were going for good material, and we developed a sound, by hook or crook”
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WAS SWEETHEARTS OF THE RODEA AND THE BURRITO BROTHERS ALSO A NATURAL PROGRESSION, OR DID IT COME FROM A DESIRE TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
We were goofing around with some country stuff at the time early on , because we all came out of folk music. I had a more traditional bent with bluegrass, but mostly we came out of folk music. We weren’t rock and roll guys at all
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“Miles Davis got us our record deal…. He did us a big favor.”
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DID YOU GET YOUR IDEA OF VOCAL HARMONICS
The harmonies we just sort of came up with. It was a natural progression (no pun intended). David Crosby was a phenomenal singer, both then and now.
His influences were just like Brian Wilson’s of the Beach Boys. Those guys didn’t listen to folk or country as much as they listened to The Four Freshmen and the Hi-Los; those kind of harmony lines. The real interesting way of stacking up notes.
It was great how David would put a harmony part on a Byrds song, and it was a real Four Freshmen harmony part. We listened to them a lot.
Brian Wilson cut his teeth on The Four Freshmen and The Hi-Los.
THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE WHY YOU WERE SO DIFFERENT, AS MOST POP GROUPS OF THAT TIME BASED THEIR HARMONIES ON THE EVERLY BROTHERS, NOT THE JAZZIER FOUR FRESHMAN
I got my harmonies from Bill Monroe and The Everly Brothers, but David came up with these parts that I couldn’t figure out how or where he was getting it. It was beautiful and worked so well with us.
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Miles Davis said he’d call the president of Columbia Records. He did, saying ‘Give these guys a break, they swing!’”
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ON ANOTHER ASPECT, I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT DURING THAT TIME PERIOD OF THE 1960s, A LOT OF MUSICIANS (LIKE YOURSELF, BARRY MCGUIRE, ROGER MCGUINN, BERNIE LEADON) HAD SPIRITUAL PILGRIMAGES AND BECAME CHRISTIANS. DO YOU HAVE A THEORY WHY?
Prior to my converting to Greek Orthodoxy I had become an Evangelical “born again” Christian. I think there was a point where a lot of people just stopped and said “Wait a minute.”
First of all, the music business is not conducive to having a normal family life, either family or life. (chuckles)
It was a big step, and there’s a reason.
When you’re getting that much attention paid to you, and all of the above, the trick is that when you come home from a big tour or successful record release and you get to your home and when you cross the threshold, you are leaving that Fantasyworld behind, and your reality is your children and your family.
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“We were very much into jazz, especially the Coltrane stuff. I must tell you: The Byrds’ song “Eight Miles High” starts with a bass figure that we took from John ‘Coltrane’s “A Love Supreme”. I got the idea for our bass line listening to Coltrane, that ‘buh bu-dah bu-dah”.
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When we had the kids I was in the Desert Rose Band. It was my band and we were successful. I got to the point where I put in 8 years-the longest time I had ever been with one band-I finally realized I was missing kid’s birthdays and stuff, and I said “We have to stop!”
We stopped as friends, and still work together in different situations.
You stop and say “Hold on hear” when you’re watching people die.
I think the 1970s were the most insidious times. It was a hard 10 year period, with cocaine rearing its ugly head, and a lot of people were doing drugs and dying.
I said “wait a minute,” got into it heavily and accepted Christ in my life. Roger (McGuinn) had also done that. We were the only two members of the Byrds that went there. Bernie Leadon and Al Perkins were special in that sense. He brought me into Christ, working with me in Manassas, The Burrito Brothers and Souther, Hillman and Furay.
HOW DID YOU GO FROM THAT TO GREEK ORTHODOXY?
10 years into my marriage, I got a real strong calling to investigate Eastern Orthodoxy.
I would go up with my family when my kids were going to Greek Church events and got baptized and became interested. I met with the priest. He gave me some wonderful bits of wisdom and I was christened in 1996. I’ve never looked back.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THE PRIEST?
I asked him questions like “why do you have these paintings, these icons, on the walls?”
He answered “What do you carry in your wallet besides your money? Pictures of your family. Why?”
“So I can remember them, because I love them.”
He said “We have the saints, the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, and Jesus Christ on the walls as icons in order to venerate and remember them. To have them there with you in a sense, when you celebrate the Eucharist.” That made sense.
I’m still peeling away layers. I still don’t understand all of the nuances of the church, but I love it. I’ve gone to a liturgy in Constantinople (which is the correct term for the city. )laughs.
THERE IS ALSO A GREAT COMFORT AND SECURITY THAT THE TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS AREN’T GOING TO CHANGE WITH THE WEATHER.
I love that. The traditions are always the same. And then I have so many Orthodox friends and priests watching out for me all over the country.
One of my friends said “You can be in the middle of Africa, and they’ll do the liturgy in Swahili”. The same liturgy. It’s fantastic.
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“Those guys didn’t listen to folk or country as much as they listened to The Four Freshmen and the Hi-Los; those kind of harmony lines. The real interesting way of stacking up notes”
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YOU DID AN ALBUM EVER CALL READY WITH BERNIE LEADON AND CARL PERKINS. NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THAT ONE.
Ever Call Ready was a one-off album that we did for a church in Sacramento. They financed it. It was mostly Baptist-type hymns. It was a lot of fun; everyone was a believer.
DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY SPIRITUAL TALKS WITH GENE CLARK? HE SEEMED LIKE A DEEP SOUL.
No. Gene, Roger and Bernie all grew up Catholic. Interestingly, Gene was one of 11 brothers and sisters; same with Bernie. He had something like 12. Wonderful families.
Bernie went into more of the Evangelical thing, and is still there.
I never talked theology with Gene because I wasn’t totally committed at the time, and he was having so many issues. I never proselytized or said “I can help” with this or that.
WHAT THREE BOOKS WOULD YOU RECOMMEND EVERYONE TO READ?
I love A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. It is a fantastic book, all centered around the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. We went to Russia with another couple from church and actually stayed there. Fascinating book.
I’ve read so many books that you were supposed to read at twelve years old. Edgar Rice Burroughs’ John Carter On Mars or James Fennimore Cooper. All of his stuff, Last of the Mohicans, The Pathfinder. Moby Dick was also great, as it’s about so much more than a whale.
East of Eden is one of the finest books ever written. I got to spend an afternoon with John Steinbeck’s son Tom, who was also a very good published author about Monterrey. Similar to his dad. He passed away about a year ago, but I got to spend an afternoon with him. He was an absolute riot.
He had been in Vietnam, a tail gunner, a photo journalist, and he actually did suffer from Agent Orange and got lung issues afterward. He asked me “What are you writing a memoir for? Who cares?” He was great.
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“the trick is that when you come home from a big tour or successful record release and you get to your home and when you cross the threshold, you are leaving that Fantasyworld behind, and your reality is your children and your family”
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WHO WOULD YOU LIKE TO SPEND AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Teddy Roosevelt would be interesting to hang with. He had a love of all things in the natural world; he did some amazing things. It’s amazing that he died so young as he did some amazing things.
WHAT’S THE BEST ADVICE SOMEONE HAS GIVEN YOU?
Musically, I remember somebody telling me when I was all of 23 years old. He said, “Sit down. I want to tell you something. You’re going to be paid in gross amounts of money, meaning half of that money is not going to be yours.”
I asked “What are you talking about?”
He said, “Half of your money will not be yours; it will be the governments. When you’re being paid in a gross amount (unless it’s a session where they take your taxes out), always take that money and put it away, having someone to handle it to pay your taxes with.”
I knew guys who would get a royalty check and go buy a car. I remember Dallas Taylor, who played drums for Steve Stills, getting a royalty check for his work with Crosby, Stills and Nash and he went and bought a Ferrari. I told him “you need to put that in the bank; you’re losing 30% driving it off the lot.”
Here I am, talking as a twenty three year old like this. I didn’t always follow it, but it was great advice.
My wife of 42 years has been a fantastic help with my finances.
I’ve always believed in mentors. There are older and wiser people that are divinely put in your path. They’d say, “why don’t you try this?” or “Why don’t you go this way?” and I always tried to follow that kind of advice.
I had a man in high school, the janitor. I was just learning guitar, and I find out that he plays in a country band on weekends. He took me under his wing; this was 1960. He said “come on over to my house.”
You normally don’t go to the janitor’s house in this environment, but I did on a Saturday. He showed me his guitar, and he played records for me. He was so wonderfully encouraging to me. He followed my career.
He later got Parkinson’s Disease. I was with him a week before he died, and I told him “Bill, if it hadn’t been for you, I probably would have done something else.”
He said “Well, I knew you had the goods; I showed you the door”
After he died, his wife gave me one of his guitars, a fantastic Martin.
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“I’ve always believed in mentors. There are older and wiser people that are divinely put in your path. They’d say, “why don’t you try this?” or “Why don’t you go this way?” and I always tried to follow that kind of advice”
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WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY WHEN THEY PUT YOU IN THE PINE BOX?
He gave his very best.
AS WITH ALL GREAT ARTISTS, CHRIS HILLMAN HAS TAKEN THE TRADITIONS OF HIS YOUTH, BOTH MUSICAL AND SPIRITUAL, AND TAKEN THEM TO A NEW DIRECTION. HIS SONGS AND HIS WRITINGS REFLECT A PILGRIMAGE THAT IS WORTH FOLLOWING, CHEERING ON AND USED FOR INSPIRING US TO CONTINUE OUR OWN PATHS.