AS A SECOND GENERATION GREEK, I UNDERSTAND RUDRESH MAHANTHAPPA’S CULTURAL SITUATION.
AS THOMAS SOWELL WRITES IN HIS CLASSIC BOOK ETHNIC AMERICA, IT TAKES ABOUT FOUR GENERATIONS FOR A GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM ANOTHER CULTURE OR COUNTRY TO COMPLETELY ASSIMILATE INTO AMERICA.
AT THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY, THERE WERE SO MANY IRISH IMMIGRANTS PLAYING SPORTS THAT REPORTERS STARTED WONDERING IF THEY WERE SPECIFICALLY INBRED TO BECOME BETTER ATHLETES. SOUND FAMILIAR?
IRISH WALKING THE STREETS OF NEW YORK IN THE LATE 1800S WOULD SEE SIGNS IN THE WINDOWS THAT READ ‘NO DOGS OR IRISH ALLOWED’, WHILE EVEN IN THE 1950S JOE DIMAGGIO WAS SUCH AN EXOTIC ENTITY AS AN ITALIAN THAT MANY ARTICLES WERE WRITTEN ABOUT HIM AND HIS AFFINITY FOR GARLIC!
RUDRESH MAHANTHAPPA HAS WALKED A SIMILAR TIGHTROPE. NOT EVEN BEING BORN IN INDIAN, HE DISCOVERED INDIAN MUSIC SECOND HAND, AFTER BEING IMMERSED INTO AMERICAN JAZZ. NOWADAYS HE MELDS THE TWO SOUNDS, RHYTHMS AND HARMONIES WITH EASE, AS HIS LATEST ALBUM, A TRIBUTE TO CHARLIE PARKER, EASILY DEMONSTRATES.
IN A SENSE, MAHANTHAPPA REPRESENTS THE BEST OF AMERICA’S PHRASE E PLURIBUS UNUM, “OUT OF THE MANY, ONE”. HE BRINGS WITH HIM A CULTURE THAT HE’S INHERITED FROM HIS FAMILY, BUT WHILE AT TIMES IT CAN FEEL LIKE A RESTRICTION, IT CAN ACTUALLY BE LIBERATING, AS IT BRINGS OUT PARTS OUR HIS WORLD AND WORLD VIEW THAT WOULD NOT OTHERWISE BE APPRECIATED.
FOR ALL OF THE BAD RAP AMERICA GETS FOR BEING “ISOLATIONIST” AND “RACIST”, MAHANTHAPPA SHOWS THAT AMERICA’S IS ONE OF THE FEW PLACES WHERE THE ONLY QUESTION A MUSICAN MAY BE ASKED IS “CAN HE PLAY?” HIS MOST RECENT ALBUM, HERO TRIO, FEATURES THE ALTO SAXIST DELVING INTO CLASSIC AMERICANA RANGING FROM VINTAGE CHARLIE PARKER TO AN INCLUSION OF JOHNNY CASH’S “RING OF FIRE” IN A POST BOP SETTING WITH BASSIST FRANCOIS MOUTIN AND DRUMMER RUDY ROYSTON.
WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONVERSE WITH MAHANTHAPPA, WHO WAS ABOUT TO TOUR THE US CELEBRATING CHARLIE PARKER’S 100TH BIRTHDAY WITH SELECTIONS FROM THIS ALBUM AND HIS PREVIOUS RELEASE BIRD CALLS. DUE TO THE COVID LOCKDOWN, WE’LL HAVE TO WAIT FOR BETTER CIRCUMSTANCES FOR AN “IN PERSON” GIG. STILL, RUDRESH’S VIEW ON CULTURE AND MUSIC IS AS FRESH AS FRAPPE’ OR COFFEE LASSEE, DEPENDING ON WHERE YOUR REFERENCE POINT BEGINS.
LET ME START OFF BY SAYING THAT I, LIKE YOU, I AM AN AMERICAN WITH PARENTS FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY/BACKGROUND, MINE BEING GREEK. SO, LET’S FIRST COMPARE NOTES…
YOU ARE FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN. HAVE YOU EVER GONE BACK TO THE VILLAGES WHERE YOUR PARENTS CAME FROM?
Not for a long time. There’s a kind of ancestral temple there that’s been in my father’s family for hundreds of years. Oftentimes when we back, we’d go there and then hit a couple of those villages.
Bet the last few times, when I go without my parents, it’s usually just about music, so I’m just hanging out in Bangalore or Chennai or another of the big cities. It’s been awhile, like since I was in highs school since I went to the villages.
THIS COMES TO MY NEXT POINT; WHEN YOU’RE HERE IN AMERICA, YOU ARE PROBABLY CALLED “THE INDIAN”, BUT WHEN YOU GO TO INDIA, ARE YOU CALLED “THE AMERICAN”?
Oh, absolutely.
At least in America, the idea of hybridity and being bi-cultural is basically the backbone of America. But, it’s hard to believe it sometimes when you hear what comes out of peoples’ mouth in this current political climate, with it being so racially tense. But let’s not get too far into that (chuckles)
But this country has been built on immigration and the transformation upon immigration. Whereas, in India, there’s no immigrant population except for a few areas where there’s a significant Chinese population or Western ex-pats, people with tech jobs, and diplomats.
So it’s very funny with the idea of them telling me “Oh, you’re just an American”. and they don’t even ask (laughs). I try to explain to them that I feel Indian-American, which means feeling Indian, or American, or both every single day, and I can see that their eyes glaze over. So I’ve kind of given up on that.
I was last there in 2015 to play some gigs, and back in ‘08 to work with some musicians. They see me in a different way; as one who’s checked out a lot of different stuff. I can “speak” their language musically, and I can hip them to some western aesthetics.
There’s a lot of respect there; we’re not having that “you’re just a blue jean-wearing American” (laughs)
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“I try to explain to them that I feel Indian-American, which means feeling Indian, or American, or both every single day, and I can see that their eyes glaze over”
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WHEN I GO ON MEDICAL MISSION TRIPS TO INDIA, THE KIDS I WORK WITH JUST ASKE ME ABOUT GUYS LIKE STEVE VAI.
(laughs). Man, they just love that fusiony and metal stuff. I think it has to do with the precision and attack of the rhythm. Things like the swinging stuff they really don’t get with, but the fusion stuff that is really in the pocket. Metal is REAL big in India. Megadeath was on tour the last time I was there.
That’s always been interesting to me. I’m sure someone’s written about it; I need to read the academics on it.
ONE MORE QUESTON ABOUT FAMILY: DID YOUR PARENTS SPEAK HINDI OR TAMIL WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP WHEN THEY DIDN”T WANT YOU TO UNDER STAND WHAT THEY WERE SAYING?
(laughs) They speak Kannada because I was from Kannartaka, but definitely. To this day, the amount of Kannada spoken in the house has changed over the years. It’s a funny thing that I find fascinating; whenever I find someone from another country doing math, they always revert to their native tongue.
To this day, every time my dad does math he does it in Kannada. I’d love to know why that happens neurologically.
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“everyone just assumed that I was an expert on Indian music because of my name and the color of my skin. Everyone wanted to come up to me and say ‘Oh, I just love Ravi Shankar’, and I’d say ‘Great; I’m listening to Twisted Sister’. “
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DO YOU THINK YOUR ATTRACTION TO THE MUSIC OF KADHRIIRI GOLPALMATH WAS DUE TO DNA, FAMILY OR DID IT CLICK BECAUSE YOU’RE A JAZZER?
It’s a little more complicated than that. I’m sure you’ve dealt with it, too.
Trying to express being Indian-American. I couldn’t speak Kanda; I just understood enough to know when I was in trouble (laughs), but I didn’t grow up around a lot of Indians, especially South Indians.
My wife grew up in a city in North Carolina that had a pretty large Indian community and could mobilize in their own way.
So, I wanted to address what being Indian meant to me, but I couldn’t do it in the typical ways, as I’m not a practicing Hindu, I don’t speak my parents’ language, but I did feel a connection with the music. Was it DNA or just part of the journey of trying to figure out who I am and how I fit into the American cultural landscape?
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I don’t speak my parents’ language, but I did feel a connection with the music. Was it DNA or just part of the journey of trying to figure out who I am and how I fit into the American cultural landscape?
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The other issue was that everyone just assumed that I was an expert on Indian music because of my name and the color of my skin. Everyone wanted to come up to me and say “Oh, I just love Ravi Shankar”, and I’d say “Great; I’m listening to Twisted Sister”. (laughs)
I grew up in the 80s in Boulder, Colorado. So, it’s like “do you think that you’re relating to me by telling me by telling me what you’re favorite Indian restaurant is? You’re not really relating to me.”
So in a way I ran away from Indian music, because there was so much pressure
The turning point for me was when Berklee College of Music sent a student group to India in 1993. That’s when everything kind of turned around for me.
I saw some concerts there that just blew my mind.
There’s a tradition in India concerts, where they start at sunset and they go all night until sunrise. I went to one of those just outside of Bangalore. I didn’t realize at the time that I had seen some of the greatest musicians of North and Southern Indian music.
I went to the record store the other day and bought as many things as I could. The very first album was inspired by that trip to India and that music that I had heard.
Then I was kind of on my way. The next decade or so was my conceptually dealing with Indian music without claiming to be an Indian classical musician, really trying to express an Indian-American identity.
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“I grew up in the 80s in Boulder, Colorado. So, it’s like ‘do you think that you’re relating to me by telling me by telling me what you’re favorite Indian restaurant is? You’re not really relating to me.’”
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DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHY YOU CLICKED AS FRIENDS WITH VIJAY IYER, AS YOU WERE BOTH IN THE SAME BOAT CULTURALLY AS FIRST GENERATION INDIAN JAZZ ARTISTS IN THE US?
(chuckles) Yeah, but we click for lots of reasons.
Steve Coleman introduced us back in 1994.He wasn’t doing very much teaching at the time, like he is now. He was teaching at the Stanford Jazz Workshop, a summer workshop I was already in grad school, but I went to see if I could pick Steve’s brain for a week. Which I did.
At the time, Steve had assembled a band that included Vijay. Steve was very flattering when he introduced us. He had played on a few tracks of Vijay’s first album which had just come out, and he said “If I can’t make your gigs, you need to call this guy Rudresh”. We have been playing together ever since.
THIS REMINDS ME OF THE CS LEWIS LINE ABOUT FRIENDSHIP BEGINNING WITH THE FAMOUS TWO WORDS “YOU TOO?”
We were both kind of surprised that there was another Indian-American jazz musician , and that we were both into similar types of jazz. We were listening to Steve and to Coltrane.
We also had great things in common, like our parents mispronouncing the same words (laughs) There were also the same stereotypes and discriminations, being the only Indian kid in high school, so we connected on many levels.
I almost feel that the music we’ve made was almost a bi-product of all of the other things that we share.
SPEAKING OF STEROTYPES…DID YOUR PARENTS TRY TO TALK YOU OUT OF BEING A MUSICAN AND BECOME AN ENGINEER?
Our parents encouraged us to be well rounded. It wasn’t that they necessarily wanted me to pursue a career in music. My older brother went into the science direction, so that took some pressure off of me.
But what’s funny about that is that when I was in high school I wanted to go to this summer program at Berklee, and it was like going to college for five weeks; you lived in the dorms. It was the longest I had ever been away from home.
My dad confessed many years later that he sent me there hoping that I would get turned off to the idea of going to a music school. When I came back, I wanted to go even more! His plan backfired! (laughs)
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“My dad confessed many years later that he sent me there hoping that I would get turned off to the idea of going to a music school. When I came back, I wanted to go even more! His plan backfired!”
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IDENTITY IS AN INTERESTING THING. SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR IDENTITY IS IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IN YOUR WIFE.
That’s very interesting. It’s funny, because I did marry an Indian, and neither one of us had ever dated another Indian before. Even in the first few weeks of our relationship we both said “Wow; I thought I was going to marry someone of another background and race, and we’d have these really cool bi-racially looking kids”. (laughs) But no! We married Indian! (laughs)
I GET IT! “I GAVE INTO THE SYSTEM”!!
Exactly!
But what’s funny is that she’s North Indian and I’m South Indian, and one of her cousins actually referred to us as being “bi-racial”. (laughs)
SO BESIDES YOUR INDIAN BACKGROUND FOR YOUR MUSIC, YOU HAVE THIS OTHER “DNA” OF BUNKY GREEN, CHARLES MINGUS AND CHARLIE PARKER. WHAT GOT YOU HOOKED ON TO BEBOP?
I have been playing saxophone since fourth grade, and had a really great teacher from then until I left for college. To this day he was probably the best teacher that I’ve ever had.
My entry point into anything jazz-related was more of the Grover Washington, David Sanborn, Spyro Gyra and The Brecker Brothers style; what was on the rock and roll radio. It was easy to relate to that., I was learning Clarence Clemons solos off of Springsteen albums.
The father of one of my childhood friends was an amateur saxophonist, and he was always giving me records. I saw Grover live with Bill Withers and Patrice Rushen when I was in 7th grade. My dad took me to that show, so he was obviously supportive
I then got the Bird Savoy recordings, and that was kind of “it”. That was 6th-7th grade, so I was listening to hard core Bird all through high school, and then into Coltrane later into college. I was always a huge Michael Brecker fan.
OMIT( What really blew my mind about Bunky Green. By the time I got to Berklee I was thinking about shaping my own ideas and developing my own vocabulary/personality. I heard Bunky Green. What blew my mind about Bunky was that he sounded sounded so futuristic and yet was totally coming out of Bird or Sonny Stitt. He was steeped in tradition, but with very much his own sound.
That’s what I wanted; to sound different but still reverent to the history of this music.
I thought Bunky Green and Steve Coleman have done that really well.
We didn’t do that album until about a few years later.
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“My goal was that you could just listen to one track on an album and you could enjoy that, but if you listened from start to finish you would have a much fuller experience, like reading a book”
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YOUR ALBUMS SHOW VARIOUS IDENTITIES. FOR EXAMPLE, YOUR LATEST TRIO ALBUM HAS BIRD AND TRAIN IN ONE SONG! THAT’S YOUR GROUP WITH ROYSTON AND MOUTIN. THEN, YOU HAVE THESE REAL OUTSIDE THINGS WITH FUZE (ON GAMA) AND DAN WEISS. YOUR ALBUM OUTPUT REFLECTS THESE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF YOUR IDENTITY.
it’s one way you can look at it.
I see each album as being a body of work unto itself. It’s not like “I have eight tunes; now I have an album”. There’s usually a through-line with each album like a connective tissue. Obviously it’s changed with Spotify releasing singles.
My goal was that you could just listen to one track on an album and you could enjoy that, but if you listened from start to finish you would have a much fuller experience, like reading a book.
Like with Gama, it was focused on asking “What does melodic formation mean, and how does it occur across the world?” On Bird Calls it was about a Charlie Parker orientation. In 2006, there as the album I put out called Code Book that was music derived from mathematics and number theories. There is always a theme that holds it together.
There was an album that was my first after coming to New York in 2002 called Black Water that was about the immigrant experience, about what it means to be raised in a country as the children of immigrants. They really all have had a musical theme, a cultural theme and a political theme, so each one is different.
With Hero Trio, I really wanted to pay respect to the musicians that have had a big impact on me. It is Bird and Trane, but it also is Johnny Cash and Stevie Wonder.
There was even a Michael Jackson tune on it that we ended up yanking because because he’s still too controversial for lots of reasons. Maybe there will be a time where we can bring it up again.
I saw Johnny Cash, Ella Fitzgerald and Stevie Wonder on Sesame Street when I was six years old. That was an impactful moment.
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“It’s those moments when you feel like you’re not playing for the audience, but that the audience and the band are on a journey together. Those moments are special”
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SOMETHING CAME UP WHEN I INTERVIEWED VIJAY THAT I WANTED TO RELAY TO YOU. WHEN THINK OF PLAYING MUSIC, DO YOU GET THE MUSICAL IDEA FIRST AND THEN THINK WHO TO CHOOSE TO PERFROM IT WITH, OR DO YOU THINK OF THE PEOPLE FIRST AND THEN LOOK FOR A MUSICAL IDEA?
I always know exactly who I am writing for.
Who is in the band is 50% of the compositional process. I can’t think of any album that I have made where I didn’t know who I wanted to be playing with first.
YOU’VE HAD SOME GREAT DRUMMERS ON YOUR ALBUMS. WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A DRUMMER?
I look for someone who has a high level of interaction, who can really play with me and maybe even spar with me rhythmically (laughs). But someone who is foundational, too.
There are some people who want drummers that are going to lay it down, and then they do their thing on top of the foundation 2330. I want a band that is in there with me.
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“I can’t think of any album that I have made where I didn’t know who I wanted to be playing with first”
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WHAT DO YOU LISTEN FOR WHEN YOU WATCH AN ALTO SAX PLAYER?
Lots of different things.
I’m always interested in sound. I’ve always been interested in not sounding like an alto player. I’ve always gravitated more towards the tenor sax players and have that kind of depth on the alto, although I’m not interested in playing the tenor.
I’m interested in how people approach rhythm. I feel that only recently has that been something that has been actively discussed among horn players in academia and music schools.
I feel like for a long time it has been, “Ah, the drummer lays it down and the alto is on top”. No, we should be able to hear and do everything a drummer does as well. That’s what being a complete musician is about.
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“I’m always interested in sound. I’ve always been interested in not sounding like an alto player. I’ve always gravitated more towards the tenor sax players and have that kind of depth on the alto, although I’m not interested in playing the tenor”
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THAT IS SOMETHING IGNORED IN TODAY’S JAZZ
When you look at Indian classical music as an example, even the melodic instruments like a singer or violinist all have a really strong emphasis on rhythm in their training. A lot of them can play table or something like that in a functional way.
Even an above-average North Indian vocalist has better time than most jazz musicians.
IT’S VERY SIMILAR TO GREEK CLARINET PLAYING< AS IT IS PLAYED FOR DANCING.
There are also different meters. Everyone is feeling that pulse coursing through the whole band. It’s not just the drummer.
It’s like the joke about the Greek band playing jazz standards beating the high hat on 7 and 11.
DO YOU HAVE A PET PEEVE ABOUT ALTO PLAYERS?
Not specifically alto players, but if you play with an inflection in your sound, make sure that the inflection is actually intentional and not habitual. If you scoop a lot of notes, make sure you’re doing it because you want to and not because you’re on auto pilot.
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“Even an above-average North Indian vocalist has better time than most jazz musicians”
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WHAT BOOKS DO YOU WISH EVERYONE WOULD READ?
Neuromancer by William Gibson. Most of what I’ve been reading lately is foreign sci-fi.
One about how math occurs. It’s called How Not To Be Wrong: The Power of Math by Jordan Ellenberg
YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU’RE NOT A PRACTICING HINDU, BUT IS THERE ANY RELIGION, PHILOSOPHY OR TEACHING THAT HAS GUIDED YOU AND MOTIVATED IN YOUR LIFE?
I don’t think so.
You’re seeing right now a lot of Hindu fundamentalism, which is pretty evil and has taken on some unfortunate shapes.
The way that Hinduism was transmitted to me was that it was very welcoming, but I don’t want to say open-ended. That makes it sound like it’s not serious.
You can dip into the philosophical aspects of it; just the core of being a good person. You can run with that in almost a secular sort of way.
I’m not a practicing Hindu, but I know that the way that I am as a person in general is because of what my parents taught me.
AND YOU KNOW THAT RACISM ISN’T JUST AN AMERICAN THING. THERE’S RACISM IN INDiA; IN GREECE THE CITY PEOPLE ARE PREJUDICED AGAINST THE VILLAGE DWELLERS.
It’s everywhere. In Northern Italy, they call everyone south of Rome “Africans”.
WHAT GIVES YOU MOST HAPPINESS?
That’s really changed over the years.
Being on the bandstand with my friends. More and more, as the years have gone by, it’s more important to be playing with people that I feel connected to off the bandstand.
There was a time were I felt that “ it doesn’t matter if you like these people; you should be able to make good music with them”. But, as the years have passed, I don’t have time to play with people that I don’t want to hang out with and have a drink with afterward.
Those moments when feel think that you’re really connected, and the band is functioning as a single organism are very empowering. It’s those moments when you feel like you’re not playing for the audience, but that the audience and the band are on a journey together. Those moments are special. ,
But I also have small kids. I have a 7 year old boy and almost 4 year old girl, and I think that they do things on a daily basis that makes me happy in a way that no one else could.
I’m now getting to the point with my son where it’s really like we’re hanging out; He’s only seven, but I feel like saying, “Hey, let’s go to a movie!”
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“More and more, as the years have gone by, it’s more important to be playing with people that I feel connected to off the bandstand”
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WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT YOU AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
(laughs) Oh, man! He was One of a Kind
THE FACT THAT RUDRESH SEES HIMSELF AS “ONE OF A KIND” REVEALS HOW OPEN AMERICA IS IN BRINGING A MELTING POT OF SOUNDS INTO IT’S WORLD OF MUSIC. EXTENDING BACK INTO THE BEGINNING OF JAZZ, WHEN “THE LATIN TINGE” WAS A NECESSARY INGREDIENT TO ITS SOUND, JAZZ HAS ALWAYS WELCOMED TONES, INSTRUMENTS AND RHYTHMS FROM OTHER CULTURES AND COUNTRIES. EVEN FOR A MAN LIKE RUDRESH, BORN IN ITALY, LIVING IN AMERICA AND DELIVING INTO HIS INDIAN ROOTS. IT’S STORIES LIKE THIS THAT SEEMS TO HAVE US BELIEVE THAT OUR STATUE OF LIBERTY HOLDING OUT A MICROPHONE AS MUCH AS A TORCH.