“It’s a toss-up when you decide to leave the beaten path. Many are called, few are chosen”
THE RAZOR’S EDGE
IN THIS SECOND PART, WE FIND SONNY ROLLINS TAKING HIS SECOND SABBATICAL, THIS TIME TO INDIA FOR FINALLY FINDING HIS SPIRITUAL PLACE IN LIFE. BUT, DURING HIS LATTER PERIOD IN LIFE WHEN HE WAS AT PEACE, A HARD CURVE WAS THROWN AT HIM WHEN HE GOT A LUNG DISEASE RELATED TO THE 9-11 ATTACK NEAR HIS APARTMENT IN NYC. THIS TRAGIC AND DEMONIC EVENT RESULTED IN SONNY ROLLINS’ FINAL EXILE, AS HE NO LONGER HAD THE CAPACITY TO PURSUE HIS LIFELONG JOY, PLAYING TH TENOR SAX.
IT WAS A “RETREAT” WHICH WAS IN SOME SENSE HIS MOST DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND. BUT, AS WE KNOW, NOTHING HAPPENS BY ACCIDENT, SO SONNY HAS USED THIS TIME AS A PART OF HIS SPIRITUAL TREK. PLEASE READ ON TO PART TWO OF THIS INTERVIEW OF SONNY ROLLINS’ FOUR EXILES…
IT WAS JUST BEFORE YOUR SECOND SABBATICAL THAT THIS RECENT ALBUM FROM HOLLAND WAS RECORDED. THIS ALBUM, AND PREVIOUS ALBUMS ON IMPULSE! WERE A BIT FREER THAT BEFORE. WAS THE MUSIC YOU WERE PLAYING AT THAT TIME AT ALL AN IMPETUS FOR THE SECOND RETREAT?
In looking back, I can’t exactly what my motives were, except to know that whatever I was doing, I was trying to reach the point that I went to the bridge for. I’ve been trying to reach that my whole career. I was always trying to improve myself.
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“I WAS TRYING TO REACH THE POINT THAT I WENT TO THE BRIDGE FOR. I’VE BEEN TRYING TO REACH THAT MY WHOLE CAREER”
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WHEN YOU WENT TO INDIA ON YOUR SECOND SABBATICAL, DID YOU TAKE YOUR WIFE WITH YOU?
Not the first time. I took her the second time I went to India. She hated it.
She hated it because of the poverty.
The first time I went to India was 1967-68. I then went back and took her with me to a performance in India. They had a thing they called the “Jazz Yatra”, which was a jazz festival, in Bombay. It was put on by a friend of mine who saw me when I was studying yoga there the first time.
He was a big jazz fan, and he put on this big festival in India. It must have been around 1969. That’s when I went back and took my wife.
WAS THERE A REASON YOU DECIDED TO STUDY HINDUISM AS OPPOSED TO CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM OR BUDDISM?
Back in the 1950s, I began studying religions, so to speak. I began studying Rosicrucianism (editor note: a spiritual/cultural system from the 17th Century) which was a religion, I guess, but actually more a field of study.
I then began getting interested in yoga. I read a book called The Autobiography of a Yogi . That was a big book back then. I read it and it influenced me a lot. That’s what made me want to study yoga.
WAS YOUR WIFE SUPPORTIVE IN THIS SPIRITUAL DIRECTION?
I had tried to introduce my wife to Rosicrucianism around the time we got married, but she wasn’t too interested in it. She wasn’t a person that was interested in things like esoteric religions and all that. She was more of the straight American life.
YOU’VE HAD ONE LAST EXILE, AND THIS ONE WAS FORCED UPON YOU WHEN YOU DEVELOPED A LUNG DISASE FROM THE FALLOUT OF THE 9-11 ATTACK.
HOW WERE YOU MENTALLY AFFECTED BY HAVING YOUR HORN TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU, SO TO SPEAK?
That is my last retreat.
I was pretty distressed when I was first diagnosed with Pulmonary Fibrosis.
I knew I wasn’t able to play as before. I was just about making it on my tour in Europe, but I was getting fatigued.
When I got that diagnosis, I was despondent didn’t know what to do. I realized I couldn’t play.
I always loved to practice; I loved practicing all of the time. It wasn’t just playing to me; it was always trying to get better.
So when I realized that I couldn’t play anymore in concerts, I tried practicing and I couldn’t do it. I’d get dizzy, I’d get sick when I tried to play.
It was a very rough period that I went through for a certain period of time until I accepted the fact that I’m not going to be able to play my horn anymore.
HAVE YOU REPLACED YOUR PRACTICE TIME WITH ANYTHING?
Yes. I had always been into spiritualism and yoga since the 50s, so I turned to that more so. That carried me over the ‘troubled waters’, so to speak. That helped me.
I finally realized that the only positive thing I can do was to be grateful for the fact that I did have a period of playing music. I’ve been more grateful for that, and less despondent for not being able to continue.
That finally came to me. I got back into my yoga practice, and that sort of brought me out of it.
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“I FINALLY REALIZED THAT THE ONLY POSITIVE THING I CAN DO WAS TO BE GRATEFUL FOR THE FACT THAT I DID HAVE A PERIOD OF PLAYING MUSIC”
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THIS SHOWS THAT MOST OF OUR PROBLEMS ARE ESSENTIALLY SPIRITUAL IN NATURE
Yes, I was finally able to get over my despondency and overcome that terrible shock. 3632
LETS DISCUSS SOME MUSICAL TOPICS. WHY DID YOU TRY, BUT EVENTUALLY ABANDON, THE SOPRANO SAX?
The soprano sax wasn’t really my instrument. John Coltrane had returned to that instrument.
It’s a very wonderful instrument. People like Sidney Bechet had done so many great things with it. I liked it, and a lot of tenor players took up the soprano saxophone because of Coltrane. I tried it for awhile, but it wasn’t really my things.
DID YOU EVER PLAY IN A BIG BAND?
I played in a big band when I was coming up studying, but not in the Big Bands like Woody Herman or something like that.
WHO COULD YOU LISTEN TO FOR 5 HOURS IN A ROW, AND STILL WANT MORE?
I could listen to Louis Jordan, Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Count Basie’s orchestra, Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday.
There’s a lot of guys I could listen to for not only 5 hours, I could listen to them all of my life! (laughs)
IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU’VE GROWN UP PLAYING WITH TWO OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PIANISTS (BUD POWELL, RICHIE POWELL AND THEOLONIOUS MONK), BUT THEN YOU MAKE SO MANY RECORDINGS IN A PIANOLESS TRIO FORMAT. IS THAT A CONSCIOUS DECISION?
I was always a guy, when I started playing, I would practice a lot.
For example, I would go out to the beach or some secluded park, and just play my horn. I used to take my friend Ornette Coleman out when I was in California, and take him out to the ocean. There was a place would go to and just practice.
By practicing all the time, that meant that I could play by myself, all alone. That became something that I became more and more devoted to, so I ended up playing with just the sparest rhythm section possible.
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“BY PRACTICING ALL OF THE TIME, THAT MEANT THAT I COULD PLAY BY MYSELF ALL ALONE. THAT BECAME SOMETHING THAT I BECAME MORE AND MORE DEVOTED TO, SO I ENDED UP PLAYING WITH JUST THE SPAREST RHYTHM SECTION POSSIBLE”
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WHO’S BEEN THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSON IN YOUR LIFE?
That’s a hard question. I came from a very loving family. A big brother, big sister, mom and dad.
Then I went out into the world and got married. We were married for almost 40 years.
DID ANYONE GIVE YOU MARITAL ADVICE?
I think I was on my own at that point (laughs), I was married twice. I could say three times, but once I wasn’t married; it was just a relationship. The third time it stuck.
IS THERE ANYONE LIVING OR DEAD YOU’D LIKE TO PICK THEIR BRAIN?
There was a religious person, a Hindu guy named Ramakishna (1836-1886). He was one of those gurus; a very religious person who didn’t live that long, but he was one of those people that was just a natural. He would go into trances and that kind of stuff.
I think that I would say him.
BESIDES THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI, ARE THERE ANY BOOKS THAT YOU RECOMMEND TO OTHER PEOPLE?
I would recommend the works of Swami Vivekananda, who was actually a disciple of Rama Krishna. Swami Vivekananda had some very good works, and he’s a little more accessible to the Western mind.
I’m sure after we’re done, I want to call you back and say, “Oh, what about this guy!” (laughs)
Of course, Buddha
I KNOW FROM PREVIOUS CHATS TOGETHER THAT YOU ALSO READ THE BIBLE
Oh yeah! I’m a big follower of Jesus the Christ.
That’s when I realized that the more that I read these spiritual studies, it’s more or less the same.
Jesus Christ, Buddha, Muhammed, Confucius…these great people that we hear about. I’m not talking about people that started religions, so I’m not talking about Muslims, Buddhists or Christians. I’m talking about the men themselves. There’s a big difference.
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“I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE THAT STARTED RELIGIONS, I’M TALKING ABOUT THE MEN THEMSELVES. THERE’S A BIG DIFFERENCE”
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THERE’S A DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU’VE SEEN THE BURNING BUSH YOURSELF.
Exactly (laughs). It’s amazing the lives that these people lived. Trying to live by the Golden Rule and move on with life. But these guys were Avatars; they showed people the way.
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY WHEN THEY LAY YOU IN YOUR RESTING PLACE?
I don’t want them to say too much, as I haven’t gotten there yet. I’m still learning and studying. Until I really feel like I’ve accomplished something that I can feel really proud of I haven’t the right to wonder about legacy. I haven’t gotten there yet.
Buddha said that there were 25 or more Buddha’s before him. Guys that were studying and living right. You just didn’t hear about them.
It’s the same with me. I’m still learning how to live; how to treat my fellow man correctly.
And it’s not even about me; it’s about the principle that we’re supposed to live by.
All of these enlightened people have been here to help us find a way to live through life.
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“UNTIL I REALLY FEEL I’VE ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING THAT I CAN REALLY FEEL PROUD OF I HAVEN’T THE RIGHT TO WONDER ABOUT LEGACY. I HAVEN’T GOTTEN THERE YET”
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DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY DEEP SPIRITUAL DISCUSSIONS WITH BUD POWELL OR MONK?
Not to the extent that I do now
As I look back on my times with them; we were just about the music. Music was our spirituality.
YOU PLAYED WITH THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT PIANISTS OF MODRN JAZZ IN POWELL AND MONK
It does blow my mind because not only did I play with Thelonious Monk and Bud Powell, but I also played with some of the greatest drummers of the day. Also some great bass players. And then some great trumpeters…Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Fats Navarro.
HOW DID THEY INSPIRE YOU?
They inspired me because they were all better than I was. I was learning from them.
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“THEY INSPIRE ME BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL BETTER THAN I WAS. I WAS LEARNING FROM THEM”
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DID YOU EVER KEEP A JOURNAL?
Not really. I did have a loose leaf book when I first went to Japan, but I lost it.
WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY AT THIS STAGE IN YOUR LIFE?
Reading something about Buddha, or some other of these great personages that we’ve mentioned.
Even better, what gives me the most joy is seeing it happen in real life. It’s one thing to read about Jesus Christ but its another thing when it happens to you personally in your own life.
You keep studying, you keep learning, but then when some of these things come to fruition, and you realized that you made some progress in getting it together. That’s a most wonderful, happy moment.
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“IT’S ONE THING TO READ ABOUT JESUS CHRIST, BUT IT’S ANOTHER WHEN IT HAPPENS TO YOU PERSONALLY IN YOUR OWN LIFE.
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ARE THERE ANY OF YOUR PAST RECORDINGS THAT YOU ACUALLY ENJOY LISTENING TO, OR DO THEY ALL CAUSE A LITTLE BIT OF AGONY?
I would say that they all cause agony.
ON REFLECTION OF THE RECENT ROLLINS IN HOLLAND, DO YOU HAVE GOOD MEMORIES OF THAT TIME?
I remember playing with those musicians in Holland. I loved the country; it was a nice time in my life
A LOT OF MUSICIANS (DEXTER GORDON AND BEN WEBSTER, TO NAME A COUPLE) MOVED TO EUROPE DURING THAT TIME. DID YOU EVER CONSIDER DOING THAT?
Yes, I did have a desire to move to Europe at one period, I was contemplating doing that, almost to the point of looking around to buy a house in Denmark, but it never came to fruition.
THE PROBLEMS IS THAT WHEREVER YOU GO, YOU STILL ARE AROUND YOURSELF.
You take yourself along with you. That’s the problem.
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“YOU KEEP STUDYING, YOU KEEP LEARNING, BUT THEN SOME OF THESE THINGS COME TO FRUITION, AND YOU REALIZE THAT YOU’VE MADE SOME PROGRESS IN GETTING IT TOGETHER. THAT’S A MOST WONDERFUL, HAPPY MOMENT.”
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IF YOU HAVEN”T TAKEN A PILGRIMAGE OR SABBATICAL TO FIGURE OUT YOUR PLACE IN THE WORLD, THINK OF IT. SOME PEOPLE CALL IT A “MID-LIFE CRISES”,(USUALLY BECAUSE THEY WAITED TOO LONG) BUT BOTH ROLLINS AND I DID IT IN OUR 20s. ONLY ONE WHO HAS ESCHEWED THE WORLD DISTRACTIONS FOR A BIT CAN UNDERSTAND IT FROM A MORE ETERNAL PERSPECT. YOU OWE IT TO THE GOD WHO MADE YOU TO FIGURE OUT YOUR PLACE IN HIS CREATION.
FOR MYSELF, I FOUND PEACE IN THE BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW OF CHRISTIANITY, WHILE MR ROLLINS FOUND A MORE UNIVERSAL/EASTERN PATH. BUT AS I SHARED AFTER OUR INTERVIEW, IT’S THE BOND OF SEARCHING THAT BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER. AS A FRIEND ONCE TOLD ME, “EVANGELISM IS ONE BEGGAR TELLING ANOTHER BEGGAR WHERE TO FIND SOME BREAD”.
MAY YOU FIND THE BREAD OF LIFE ON YOUR PATH…
I wish I could make you see how much fuller the life I offer you is than anything you have a conception of. I wish I could make ;you see how exciting the life of the spirit is and how rich in experience. It’s such a happy life. There’s only one thing like it, when you’re up in a plane by yourself, high and only infinity surrounds you. You’re intoxicated by the boundless space”
THE RAZOR’S EDGE