ONE OF THE WORDS THAT RARELY GETS APPRECIATED IN JAZZ LEXICON IS “ARTIST.” THERE ARE MANY MUSICIANS OUT THERE, BUT FEW HAVE MADE IT AN ART.
ALTO SAXOPHONIST CHARLES MCPHERSON IS ONE OF THE LAST LIVING ARTISTS TO HAVE GROWN UP IN THE BEBOP ERA AND HAVE TAKEN THOSE SPECIFIC LESSONS TO THE BAND OF ICONIC LEADER CHARLES MINGUS. HE TOURED REGULARLY WITH MINGUS AND HAS BEEN ON A NUMBER OF HIS MOST IMPORTANT BEING “LET MY CHILDREN HEAR MUSIC” AND “THE COMPLETE TOWN HALL CONCERT.”
HIS SOUND IS SO ROOTED IN BEBOP THAT HE WAS CHOSEN FOR THE ROLE OF PLAYING CHARLIE PARKER’S SOLOS ON CLINT EASTWOOD’S FAMOUS FILM “BIRD.”
HE CONTINUES TO RECORD AND TOUR, WITH HIS MOST RECENT ALBUM, THE JOURNEY, BEING A VINTAGE DELIVERY OF ACOUSTIC MODERN JAZZ, STRAIGHT WITH NO CHASER.
WE RECENTLY GOT IN TOUCH WITH THE LEGENDARY ALTO SAX PLAYER, AND WHAT IS FASCINATING ABOUT HIM IS HOW HE TAKES THE VIEW OF BEING AN ARTIST INTO A WHOLISTIC EVENT, EFFECTING EVERY PART OF HIS BEING
HOW DID YOU FIRST GET INTO JAZZ?
I was in junior high school, and a young tenor sax player in one of my band classes told me about Charlie Parker. I hadn’t heard about him; I didn’t know much about the concept of music that Charlie Parker played.
Later on, I saw a song of his on the jukebox, a record. I remembered the student who had told me about Parker, so I put my money in and heard the song. It was a 45, called “Tico Tico,” the first tune I ever heard from him. It just blew me away when I heard it. From that point on (I was about 14 at the time, playing alto) I knew that this was what I wanted to do. This kind of music was jazz; I knew that. But it was a certain kind of jazz, so I found out what they called this. There was a group of other musicians that played this genre of jazz, so I zeroed in on that.
Then, I just went about trying to find records by artists that played this kind of music. That’s how I got into it. And I played in school, of course.
YOU WERE PART OF THE DETROIT JAZZ SCENE. HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED WITH IT AND BARRY HARRIS. WHAT MADE IT SO SPECIAL THERE?
Right after discovering Charlie Parker and this particular kind of music, I find out that a jazz club called The Bluebird, right down the street from my house, featured this kind of so-called modern jazz, progressive jazz, or bebop. Whatever you wanted to call it. I had known about the club; when I was a kid playing in my front yard I would see these adults walking down the street and I knew that they were heading for this club. At that time I was 9 or 10 years old and I wasn’t really into music or jazz. I just knew that it was a bar down the street where these people would be walking toward.
Now, since I’m older at 14-15 (1953) and am into music, I realize that this bar down the street features the kind of music that I’m interested in. Now that bar down the street has a whole new meaning to me! I start going down there and start listening to these musicians, and I’m too young, of course, so I would listen outside.
The people playing, the house band when I started to know about the Bluebird was Pepper Adams on baritone sax, Elvin Jones was the drummer, Barry Harris was the piano player, and a bass player named Beans Richardson. That’s who the house band was. Also people like Sonny Stitt, Wardell Gray and Billy Mitchell worked there in Detroit. So, this was a hub of local jazz activity. The music played there by the local jazz musicians was great and I was attracted to it as I was listening outside. This was how I heard them.
Miles Davis lived in Detroit for a couple of years during this period, and so he would play at the Bluebird a lot.
I’m already saying that this is what I want to do. I’m studying records and I meet Barry Harris because he’s working at that club and I started studying with him. He lived right around the corner so it was very easy for me to get started. Barry showed me about harmony and theory; he taught me a lot.
LOOKING BACK, WHAT WERE THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT HE TAUGHT YOU?
I was impressed of course by his musicianship and his knowledge of music. He’s still alive, you know. I met him when I was 15 or 16, and he was 25-26. But he also influenced me in becoming more of a wekk rounded person. I mean, I was a kid. I wasn’t thinking about “being well rounded.”
I remember coming over to his house one day, and I had my report card with me. He said, “Hey, let me see your report card.” So, I showed him the card. Now, in those days I was a “C” student; I had no As, no Bs on my card. I didn’t do much to try to get an A; as long as I got a C and I was passing and wasn’t the dumbest guy in the class, I was fine with that.
When Barr saw all of those Cs, he looked at me and said “You’re quite ordinary!” I didn’t think of that as being a put-down or anything like that. Then, he said, “I’ll tell you; the kind of musicians that you like, and the people that you admire, these people are not “C” students at all. They are very special people. You can’t just be a “C” level, mediocre and ordinary person and have just a mediocre mind to play this kind of music. It’s too complicated; there’s too much stuff going on, and you’re not going to be successful with it. You need to do everything that you can to broaden your mind. How you think, how you conceive and all these things. You need get a new template other than this “C student” thing.”
When he said that , it meant more to me coming from him than coming from my parents saying the same thing. From that point on, I started doing the NY Times crossword puzzle because Barry did it. He would do the Sunday puzzle in a half hour. Besides music he was a voracious reader; he would read books about Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. I had no clue about any of that kind of stuff.
So, I started thinking that maybe I’m supposed to learn as much as I can about things other than music because it actually helps you play music better. I had never put those two things together like that.
So Barry Harris was responsible for basically opening an intellectual door other than just the acquisition of musical knowledge, and into a door of knowledge, period.
It was a big lesson. At that time Barry’s house was a hub of musical activity. Everybody in the city, all of the good musicians would come over to Barry’s house because he worked at night, but in the day time he was free to practice and do what he wanted to do. Anytime anyone wanted to, they could come by and talk music, play or talk about ideas. So this was a natural thing that would happen with Barry.
Musicians from New York would come by Barry’s house, as he had a reputation as an “open house.” So, I was able to see and meet John Coltrane; he would come by Barry’s house when he was coming through from New York. Sonny Rollins…all of these wonderful people.
And I was always there, living right around the corner. After school and after homework I would go over to Barry’s house. So I was privy to some of these people coming by his house.
I was impressed that when these musicians would sit and talk, when they weren’t talking about music, the other things they were talking about would be very interesting things like Nitzsche, Bertrand Russell, Spinoza or Emmanuelle Kant. These guys would have conversations about things that would have nothing to do with music. They’d talk about quantum mechanics; this was impressive to me. They were bebop musicians, but they could sit around and talk Dorothy Field or Ayn Rand. They knew various philosophical slants that people were talking about and the fact that they were able to do it was very impressive to me.
For us young Detroit musicians, we knew that we wanted to emulate these people. We didn’t want to just play this music of Bird and bebop. We actually had to read some books and talk about things other than music. We considered all of that as a particular template that went along with the art and the music that we were into. That was very informative for me. Everything you do informs everything else.
HOW DID YOU MEET UP WITH CHARLES MINGUS?
That started with me going to New York with a friend of mine, Lonnie Hillyer. He was my age, a trumpet player living in my neighborhood. We both decided to go to New York and stay there for at least a few months to see if we could get working with a “name” band. We had saved money to be able to do that in case we didn’t end up working for some group and had to come back home.
So we went there, and Mingus was in need of an alto player and a trumpet player. The great sax player Yusef Lateef, who was also from Detroit, knew that we were in town. So he told Mingus that there were a couple of guys from his home town and that he should check these guys out as they might be able to play his music and he’ll have both his alto and trumpet player.
Mingus came to hear us at a jam session and he hired us that night at a little jazz club in the Village. This is early 1959 or 58. He hired us because Eric Dolphy had quit and his trumpet player Ted Curson was leaving. So Lonnie and I joined the band with Eric and Curson because they both still had two weeks to play and show us the music and then they’d be off. That’s how I started playing with Mingus, and I was with him on and off for 12 years.
WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS WITH MINGUS
Well, Mingus had a reputation for being confrontational and difficult. I saw that right away. But, he was very passionate and a wonderful writer. He loved Duke Ellington and loved Charlie Parker; he had also his own thing, of course. He was a very strong individual, a wonderful composer and a great bassist. Mingus was such a strong personality that, beside his music being powerful, he himself was very powerful and he generated a lot of interest because he was so combative. He was always getting write-ups; there was always some kind of thing going on (in the news). Mingus would get press because the interest was there along with the great music that was there.
In working with him, as difficult as he could be, I found out that he had a good heart. There was a tenderness about him in his heart, and he was honest; he wasn’t a dishonest man. This part of Mingus that never gets out I saw.
As a case in point, we were doing a benefit for a beat poet and writer named Kenneth Padgett, sort of like Jack Kerouac. He was a personal friend of Mingus, and he was sick; something was wrong with him. We were in Mill Valley and we did a benefit with Mingus’ band. At the end of the benefit Mingus started handing out $5 bills to us in the band. He wanted to give us something, because we were playing with no salary.
Everyone took the five dollars, except for me. When he got to me, I just said to him, “What’s five dollars more or less? Just put it into the kitty for the man because he’s sick and the other money was for him anyway. Five dollars is not going to change my life, so give it to him.”
I was about 20. When he saw that everyone took the money except me, he looked at me and his eyes got all welled up with tears, and he said, “Thanks, Charlie.”
From that point on, he had a different way of dealing with me than he did with everyone else in the band. He was moved that I, a 20 year old, gave back the money. That impressed him. He had a special way with me. I could be late or act kind of silly on the bandstand , but he would just kind of look the other way and wouldn’t give me a hard time because he had me categorized.
It meant something to him, and the fact that it did meant that he was a certain kind of guy himself. Even with his reputation.
ANY THOUGHTS ON THE “FAMOUS” TOWN HALL CONCERT?
I was part of that, and Mingus was so disorganized during this period; the music wasn’t copied. They were being copied on the stage while the recording was being made! It was total chaos. I think that the A and R man from the record company got fired; it was a mess.
I’m a very young man at that point. I was just trying to read the music, but I was still aware of how chaotic and hectic that it was and that it shouldn’t be that way. At a live concert and at a live recording. All I could do was what I’m supposed to do, and I couldn’t make sense out of most of it. I’m not sure how much of it has been released; maybe something was.
HOW ABOUT YOUR STUDIO RECORDING WITH HIM, THE SHOES OF THE FISHERMAN’S WIFE?
I remember that; it was with Columbia Records. Mingus augmented his group quite often when he was making records. This was one involving quite a few people. That music was great, and plus the recording studio was great. The engineering and all of that; I was very impressed by the sound that these engineers at Columbia were getting. I had never heard my alto sound like that before.
When I heard the playback and I heard my sound, I thought, “OK, so these big record companies do have the ability to get engineers to do this stuff.” That was the best alto sound I ever had on a record, and I had been on a few by then.
YOU BROUGHT UP THE FACT THAT YOU REPLACED ERIC DOLPHY. SO, YOU WERE THERE WHEN HE AND COLTRANE STARTED CHANGING THE SOUND AND DIRECTION OF JAZZ. WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION TO IT?
I don’t think I ever understood what Eric was doing. But, I did understand, at least to some degree, what ‘Trane was doing. But, I didn’t want to go into that direction; I already had a direction for me to go in. That was his direction.
I still wanted to play melodic music. I wanted to still play “II-V-I” as they say. Trane eventually stopped playing that; he just started playing modally. For me, modal playing was interesting. It wasn’t like I didn’t want to do that, but I didn’t want to get into a “modal box” and just say to myself “for the rest of my life I’m going to play modal music.”
I didn’t want to do that; some people did that. I wanted to say that on some tunes I might dabble in modality and all that, but I’m not going to say that this was it for me forever. So, I didn’t go that route.
I also felt strongly about dissonance and melodicism. I always thought that dissonance and melodicism should be balanced in music and even how you improvise. I never thought that everything dissonant for the sake of dissonance was the way that I wanted to go. I always believed in a balance of melodicism mixed with tension and dissonance.
THEN, THERE’S ALSO THE WHOLE PERIOD WHERE YOU RESISTED THE TIDE WHEN EVERYONE WAS PLUGGING IN AND GOING ELECTRIC
Again, it’s the same thing; when it became kind of a ‘sway’ I’ve always thought that acoustic instruments just have the best sound. I’m not against anyone else wanting to do that, but I’ve always thought that a great Steinway piano was a wonderful sound. The bass as it is, is great. The acoustic sound is what I’ve always liked, so that took care of the “sound” part.
Now, I’m not against electronic instruments. I can see how they can be used moderately for certain affects; I’m not against that. But, if I’ve got to make a choice of which one I’m going to use, and you can’t do both, I’m going to choose the acoustic instrument.
AND YOU’VE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE A LIVING AT IT.
Well, I’ve been able to not be poor! I’ve been able to create a niche, or actually there was a niche where I could be able to make a decent living.
SPEAKING OF MAKING A LIVING, HOW DID YOU GET TO PROVIDE THE ALTO SAX PLAYING FOR CLINT EASTWOOD’S “BIRD” FILM?
That came about because Clint Eastwood wanted it; this was one of his pet projects because he is into jazz. His musical advisor was a guy who writes some of his scores, Lennie Neihaus. Himself a great alto player. He might have known of me because he’s an alto player himself, and Eastwood asked him about me, so I sent a tape to him. He said, “OK, you’re in.” That started the process of my being involved in that film.
WHAT WERE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE FILM?
I’m glad he did it. For a guy with that kind of money and power to be that interested in it was something I’m going to bad mouth. I can look at that film and say that I would never have done this and I would have done that. But as far as what I thought about it, I’d have to say I liked (Bertrand Travernier’s film ) “Round About Midnight” better.
I can’t say that I didn’t like the “Bird” film. It was a little dark for me. Not only in mood, but in the photography of it.
HOW ABOUT YOUR OTHER STARRING ROLE, “THE LAST OF THE BLUE DEVILS”?
That was more of a documentary. I was called because I was born in Joplin, Missouri. Not far from Kansas City and all that. I was the youngest of all of the people to be involved in that movie. That was back in the 70s and a lot of those guys were still living; Count Basie, Big Joe Turner..I met Buster Smith, one of Charlie Parker’s teachers.
It was interesting to be in Kansas City, and a lot of the footage was shot in the old Kansas City black union building. It was just a lot of fun to be around those older guys who still were alive and listening to them talk. And they knew how to swing!
YOUR NEW ALBUMS ARE WONDERFUL. IS IT HARD TO FIND GUYS THAT CAN PLAY YOUR MUSIC?
It’s not easy, and it’s not because the musicianship isn’t there. It’s just the symbiosis between people isn’t easy. That’s what makes it hard; there are so many different styles and so many ways to play, that to get 4-5 people that have this magic, it’s not very easy; it’s a crap shoot to have the musicianship with the 4-5 other people in a symbiotic situation.
You know, you can have a basketball team, and everyone’s great. Everyone’s a star. But is the symbiosis there? That’s what makes the whole difference.
So, it’s not because my music is hard or easy, it’s just like getting two people to dance together the same way. It’s not the easiest thing in the world.
THE DIFFICULT THING FOR YOU IS THAT EVERYONE YOUNGER THAN YOU HAS LISTENED TO OR PLAYED ROCK MUSIC AT SOME TIME, SO THAT CAN INFLUENCE THE PURITY OF THE BEBOP SOUND THAT YOU GREW UP WITH .
That’s true. The record date was done with Denver musicians, and it was done in a jazz club there, Dazzle. A very nice place. The tenor and trumpet players are academic guys. They play and teach in school .
The owner of Capri Records, Tom Burns, was there and he quite often records musicians that are often coming from New York through Denver, because his company is in Denver. That’s how we made that record The Journey.
WHAT’S NEXT FOR YOU?
What I’m doing now is that I wrote a ballet for a company, The San Diego Ballet. My youngest daughter is a member of that ballet company here in San Diego. This performance came about by way of a grant that was made possible by The San Diego Creative Catalyst Fund. These people will bestow it on artists in the San Diego area that partner with each other.
That is part of the stipulation of the grant. Another stipulation of the grant is that both people must in this partnership must do something out of their comfort zone. That is part of satisfying the grant.
For me, on my side, I just can’t play bebop. And the choreographer that I partnered with can’t just do classical ballet. We have to do something that pushes the envelope for both of us. So, he’s writing choreography for jazz music, bebop, and Afro Cuban/Latin.
So, the music that I wrote reflected certain nuances of bebop without a doubt, but also with the Afro Cuban/Latin connection. That’s my input; his is to choreograph some dancing to go with that music. It’s a hybrid concoction there.
After performing it in a workshop, which satisfies the requirements of the grant, what we are doing is incorporating it into San Diego Ballet’s regular season. This will be performed by a whole core of the dance company which is 18-20 people.
HOW DOES IT FEEL TO STILL BE IN DEMAND?
I love it! I feel like I can’t retire; I need the money, honey! I’m more in love with playing the saxophone now than when I was 22 years old.
WHAT WOULD TODAY’S CHARLES MCPHERSON TELL THAT 22 YEAR OLD?
I would say he’d definitely have to learn more about the business of music (laughs). I always did practice; I knew that. I’ve always loved it and dedicated myself to it.
Be more fearless and be more willing to not play it safe.
ANY BOOKS OR PHILOSPHIES THAT INSPIRE YOU?
I love all kinds of music. I love Prokofiev, Stravinsky and Bartok. People like that. I love Bach. I don’t listen to as much jazz as most people would think.
In terms of reading, I’m very much interested in ancient civilizations. Egypt, Greece and Sumaria. Very interesting in that. The Fertile Crescent of Genesis and the Antediluvian world. There was a lot of stuff going on in human history before the flood.
I read Genesis in the old testament and other things that were written during that period. There’s a lot of information from Mesopotamia that starts to fall into place with Genesis.
THE GREAT THING ABOUT READING THE BIBLE IS THAT YOU REALIZE THAT THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE NOW ARE THE SAME PROBLEMS THEY’VE HAD SINCE MAN HAS BEEN ON EARTH.
You’ve got human beings. You’ve got selfishness and self-aggrandizement. You’ve got men and women, and people fighting over the same land! There’s nothing that has changed about how humans are and how they relate. Technology has changed, but human nature is still what it’s always been.
WE STILL NEED SOMEONE TO SAVE US.
Yeah, we know that; what interests me is how the information of his earth has been given. Who knew what Pi R squared was? What is our template for Divinity? I’m trying to figure that out and play my music.
SO, YOU’RE GOING INTO THE WAY PAST, AND TAKING IT ALL INTO THE FUTURE!
I also think of music as being , as a scientist once said, “the phenomenal universe as we know it really flows in music.” So, I’m thinking of what the vibration is of, say E flat. How does that effect a cell in the human body? So, for me, music is not just entertaining some guy in a bar. But what does that note mean in the scheme of the universe? So, my music is like part of the journey of discovery.
IT IS APPROPRIATE THAT MCPHERSON’S ALBUM IS ENTITLED “THE JOURNEY,” AS IT FITTINGLY DESCRIBES HIS ENTIRE LIFE AS A MUSICAL ARTIST. IF YOU’VE NEVER HEARD HIS MATERIAL WITH MINGUS , YOU’RE IN FOR A REAL TREAT, BUT ANYTHING BY THIS TRUE MASTER OF HIS TRADE IS A TRIBUTE TO THE TENACITY OF AN ARTIST PERFECTING HIS TRADE. CATCH HIM WHILE YOUCAN, AS THIS BREED IS HARD TO FIND.