A FIRESIDE CHAT WITH CHARLES GAYLE


If there ever was an underground legend, Charles Gayle is him. His journey is, more often than not, too remarkable and passionate for words. I have been a devotee for many of my youthful years. His beliefs have led him to sacrifice everything for his music - his true love. I present unto you, the minister of free jazz, Charles Gayle, unedited and in his own words.


FRED JUNG: Let's start from the beginning.

CHARLES GAYLE: Well, I started playing music when I was, I guess, about eight or nine years old. I had to take piano lessons. I was one of those. That didn't go over too good, but I had to do it anyway. I've just been playing. When I was young I played in piano bars and things. I sang and played in church sometimes. And then, of course, I was always around music, the blues players and a lot of musicians in the projects and things like that. I lived one block from the strip of all the music. I got a chance to play when I was young and that eventually just led to different gigs. Basically, it started, like I said, on piano and then I switched to saxophone. I guess I was in my late teens, early twenties when I switched. It basically was bebop or boogie woogie or little big bands in the early days, but then I got into small groups, bop and stuff like that and it eventually just led to playing that music and other music of course, but then breaking away in the late '50s or something like that, early '60s into a freer form, I say a freer form, because at that time bop and Bird were considered. I just kept going with it. That is all I can say.


FJ: Did you take formal lessons?

CHARLES GAYLE: A couple of years when I was a kid. I guess I got to book two. I never got past that one. I guess it was exercise books and a little theory to understand what I was doing. You've got to use theory in that way. That's it. I never really had any more studies other than that. I taught myself basically. But I will give credit, certainly, to my music teacher. During the first couple of years, I did have a music teacher at that point.


FJ: There is a certain segment of the old guard and writers that believe self-taught musicians are secondary artists.

CHARLES GAYLE: Well, I think it depends, of course. I'm just saying this really quickly, Fred. Getting lessons can help, yes. I think it is good to know music. There was a point, of course, when in the older days a lot of people couldn't read and really so much was by ear and of course, a lot of it still is. I wouldn't say you can only go so far, but I would say that would limit you, of course, because you never know what situation you will run into. I think it would be good to learn. I think you can teach yourself, but if you can't do that, then I think it can't hurt you to understand music and to be able to read it. I think it is good to know that. If you can't get it on your own, I would suggest anybody get a teacher for that.


FJ: You circumvented working as a sideman.

CHARLES GAYLE: I played for different people and different groups as I was coming up. I can't pinpoint anybody in particular, but sometimes it was a trio and I played with some old groups that were sort of out of Ellington's kind of music. I played in quintets, quartets, different things over the years. But I can't stress any one group, no. I didn't stay in one group, five, six, seven years, no.


FJ: Again, that gives more ammunition to the pundits.

CHARLES GAYLE: I don't think I'm the person. I can't really say what. I think it certainly is a value to play with different groups. There is no question about that. It is like going to the gym if you are a fighter or a boxer. I will use that analogy. You learn how to bob and weave. You learn different styles, footwork, different things. You can say this in any kind of thing. It can be in writing, or dancing, or science. You learn different techniques, that's what I am trying to say. It can't hurt you. The brain is big enough to absorb more than one thing. I think it is good to do it. You still won't loose any bit of your originality or anything. You can certainly pick up nice things. I can't say anything against it. Is it necessary to do that in order to be an artist? Of course not, no. No, it is not necessary to be an individual and to really have something to say. I absolutely know it is not absolutely necessary because I played with people who had absolutely no teachers under any sort of circumstances. I know exactly who I am talking about in my mind. I can't say they were under any teachers of any kind and they turned out to be wonderful players. It is not a negative to do it. I will tell you that. I do know that if you can't do it on your own, get as much as you can if you can get it.


FJ: How much of an impact has Albert Ayler had, on not only your musical vision, but also on the music as a whole?

CHARLES GAYLE: I think Albert Ayler had an impact on a lot of people. He had an impact on me. I really dug him. I think his songs had sort of an impact more than his style. I am influenced by a lot of different people, sure. A lot of people don't want to admit that, maybe some do. I listened to him, Coltrane, and other people before them. Ayler reminded me of a church player and I grew up with the church. He reminded me so much of that kind of playing, that vocal, guttural, I don't know how to say it, but that kind of playing was a singing style, so I sort of related his music to that and I related to that because I was in it. He certainly had an influence on so many players across the word, yes. Nobody sounds like him, but just the fact of the freeness of it. I would say that.


FJ: But writers compare your playing to Ayler's.

CHARLES GAYLE: No, I would never want to say that. No. I don't think, I mean, I am a player and to have the impact for the time that he was there. It's a different time. I think Albert Ayler was on the ground floor of that type of music in the '60s or late '50s with Ornette and other people. Although, it was played in a sense of freeness and an openness and different sounds, we're a part of jazz, but it wasn't a music in itself as much as it was when Albert or Trane or Pharoah or Frank Wright or other people who were publicly, noticeably on the ground floor of it. To me, I never thought about that. To me, I doubt it. If somebody's comparing me to Albert Ayler in terms of the impact or I'm going in a particular direction that is opening a few doors, it never entered my mind.


FJ: Your thoughts on Trane.

CHARLES GAYLE: Coltrane, well, Fred, I don't have enough comments about Coltrane. I've certainly listened to him and saw him and everything and tried to get some of his stuff together in my music and everything. To me, he had the greatest impact of any musician maybe since Bird or Louis Armstrong.


FJ: Does he continue to make an impression on you?

CHARLES GAYLE: Oh please, oh yeah.


FJ: I say that in reference to your FMP recording, Touchin on Trane.

CHARLES GAYLE: Well, first of all, Rashied (Ali) named that album. I didn't name that album. We were trying to think of a name. William Parker said, sort of, Trane's in there or something because somehow people were tuning into that. So Rashied was, I think this was in a hotel room or something, so we went over and said, "Rashied, we've got to name this thing before we leave." So somehow Trane's name came up and of course, he's very close to Trane. I don't know who got the word "touchin." It wasn't intentional, but we didn't want to say "touching." We wanted to make sure to say it the way we say it (laughing). I know Rashied sort of suggested it. To go back to doing that, Fred, we had played some gigs and so we had to go into the studio and we had to play. I don't think anybody had a lot of energy. It wasn't planned that way, to be playing Trane or to be thinking about Trane. I wanted to play something that was different than playing energy music, if you want to use that expression. I, sort of, relaxed and did that because the music that I am playing doesn't always have to be total energy and all that other kind of sound, which I do love. I just tried to use some different techniques to play, which I was familiar with, or bop or post-bop. I know how to play it, I'm not saying great. I grew up playing it, I just never use it generally when I'm playing publicly. It came out that way. It was not planned that way, no.


FJ: For a period of time, you were homeless, aside from the obvious financial reasons, were there other mitigating circumstances?

CHARLES GAYLE: Finance has something to do with it and then a lot of things was the system. The system was fine. It just wasn't working for me. I'm not saying anything against the system. There were some things. There were some racial things involved and other things that I don't need to get into. I had gotten to a point where I had to do it on my own or not do it, either live or die with this. Either I was going to do it or die. Whether I made records or played, I was going to make some money because I was making some money on the street and gave it to the situations or obligations that I had to deal with. But basically, I had no money. I wound up in the street. To speak on it from musical reasons, I wanted to play, I had played different kinds of music in my life. Somehow over the years, I knew I was going play it. I didn't want to be obligated to anybody. I didn't want to just go to famous people and say, "I want to play with you and do all that." It just wasn't my, I don't have anything against people who are well known, God bless them, but somehow I got into this, "I'm going to do it my way." So to make a long story short, Fred, I wound up in the street. Well, I didn't expect that, but I did. I played. I had a horn. Much of the time, it was an alto. I had a horn. I lived in the street and I lived in abandoned buildings for twelve, fifteen years, I don't know how many years. I have no idea anymore. Twelve minimum, some people say twenty, but I don't think it was that long. I say between twelve, fifteen years, I had every winter and every day, no heat, no nothing.


FJ: Music would be the last thing on most people's minds, how were you able to keep the fire burning?

CHARLES GAYLE: Well, (laughing) I don't know. Maybe God want me to. I say, "Thank God." It wasn't a matter of, I couldn't say no to that. Aside from turning my back on people that I loved and everything, which I really didn't, it wasn't about that. I was going to do this or freeze to death out there. I was going to do it and I knew I was going to do it and I was determined to do that. I almost lost the battle, but I don't mean I wouldn't do anything else to live, but I didn't find anything else except maybe to draw some pictures in the street sometimes. I don't have a super education to walk into people and say, "Here." And I didn't want to get into that because my color played a great part with people because I have worked other jobs in my life and at a point, I really got tired of this second rate thing that I was facing a lot because I couldn't really use my mind and I'm not the first person. People are different. Everybody faces that at some time in their life, so I'm not saying this was a unique situation. I played as much as possible, frostbitten, and I'm not trying to make this a big tragedy. Well, homeless is not funny. I can put it like that. But somehow, I did get through it. I did get through it. The last year, which was four, five years ago, that that ended. I'm glad it ended because I thought the next winter I would freeze to death. I felt I wasn't going to make it. I don't know why. People do freeze to death. They cover up. They stay in the cold and you breath the cold air sometimes and you half sleep and you can't pull yourself out of it. You feel like you are sort of drowning and you don't have the strength to pull yourself out and you die. I felt that that was coming because it had happened to me a few times. I was losing my strength to do it.


FJ: Do you think you were predestined to make it?

CHARLES GAYLE: I believe that God has a purpose for us. I don't know what that is. I'm not heavy into that. I just say that. I think God, and when I say God, I say to Christ, we serve a purpose and he knows it. We serve a purpose through him. If you say predestination, I think we have free will. The only way that I think about that, I can only say for myself, I believe that being a believer that I will serve a purpose for Christ.


FJ: Are you on a mission from God?

CHARLES GAYLE: OK, OK. It would be easy to say yes. That might be self-serving. I'm not trying to just be careful, Fred. I'm not that careful a lot. I just think that I'm serving God someway. I'm going to say that God has allowed me to play and I dedicate my life and my music to God. It's for him to say whether that is my mission. I won't speak for God.


FJ: Your belief in Christianity is well documented, through recording such as Repent, Testaments, Delivered, and Daily Bread.

CHARLES GAYLE: On the records, as far as labels and titles, please understand this, Fred, I don't feel like I'm a person that is trying to preach to anybody just to prove that I am a Christian or that I believe in Jesus Christ. I am not really trying to do that. It's not a showboat thing. It might seem like that, but I am really not thinking like that. I hope it isn't and if it is I hope I can change. I feel that God is as real to me as drinking water is. It's not a maybe. I'm not saying that I can prove it to anybody or anybody can prove it to me, that is not my point. I feel as natural about that as someone is drinking water or waking up or breathing. It is never a question of a maybe about it. I say that because I can understand people who don't feel that way. I can respect that. This isn't a big, "OK, look at me and I'm going to prove to you about God." The thing is, it's just as easy and natural to do as talking to you, Fred. So having said that, it is just that way. When I make music, make records, I'm very thankful. I do feel that it is in my heart to give credit to God and to dedicate my music to God. We can still talk about naming songs for flowers, and people, and animals, and life. I understand that too. I do that sometimes. I couldn't personally and this is one of the things that got me into the homeless situation, I personally, this is just my personality, could not work for a record campy that had to dictate how I would represent myself as a human being. I couldn't do that. I couldn't work under any circumstances for any company where I couldn't speak my mind.


FJ: The Knitting Factory has allowed for your individuality, how much of a role has the Knitting Factory played in your successful resurgence?

CHARLES GAYLE: Oh, big, big time. The Knitting Factory is one of the companies that I have recorded for, not the only one. I can say a few things about that. One is, they have a place to play, the Knitting Factory itself and over the years, it has afforded me a chance to play. Hopefully, a few people might show up and I hope they like it. There really is no way to express my gratitude for that, for them being there. I am very thankful for that. I have to do that. The Knitting Factory and Michael Dorf in particular, but the group of people that are there have been very alright about what you want to do. I think at one point I did ask Michael if there would be a problem if I am a Christian. He didn't blink and so I didn't blink either. It was cool with me. So from then on it's been fine. It's played a factor because I have been able to travel, where a lot of times I had never traveled so much and do some tours. Some things that I never thought would happen did happen. So I have to certainly give credit where credit is due. I have been dealing with them for quite a few years and I am very thankful that they have been on the scene.


FJ: It has been a mutually rewarding partnership.

CHARLES GAYLE: I think so. I hope so anyway.


FJ: Let's touch on your latest album for the Knitting Factory label, Ancient of Days.

CHARLES GAYLE: To say whether I like it or not is another thing. I think it works. I will put it that way. I'm glad to do an album like that because I am trying different things. I'm trying different techniques to try and play different ways at times. I like to take chances on going inside with the music or outside, changes or no changes, free and not free, different kind of stuff because I like to do those things. To be what they call a free musician and to not be bagged out to the point where that's the only thing that I feel I can express as a musician. Although, if that is all somebody wants to do, that's fine. Me, personally, I guess it is in my nature. I like to do different things. I feel good to have it on record. At least you can say, "He did something different." He didn't so the same thing all his life.


FJ: If you had a business card, how would it read?

CHARLES GAYLE: To describe myself, a sinner who loves Christ (laughing). I know that sounds cliché, but I really understand that. I don't consider me having any special thing in life. I'll just say that I am nothing and God's everything. I'm just another person. I chew bubble gum like everybody else sometimes.


FJ: But you would chew it different from anyone I know.

CHARLES GAYLE: Yeah (laughing).


Fred Jung is the Editor-In-Chief and has big feet if you know what I mean, wink wink. Comments? Email him.