‘WHO ARE YOU?’
IT SEEMS LIKE SUCH A SIMPLE QUESTION, BUT OUR IDENTITY IS THE ONE THING THAT IS UNIQUE ABOUT EACH ONE OF US. WE ALL IDENTIFY OURSELVES IN DIFFERENT WAYS: SOME BY THEIR WORK, SOME BY THEIR SEX, SOME BY THEIR ETHNICITY, OTHERS BY THEIR RELIGION, SOCIAL STATUS OR WHERE THEY WERE BORN.
SO, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WHAT YOU CONSIDERED YOUR GREATEST IDENTITY IS TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU?
SONNY ROLLINS IS UNDOUBTEDLY THE MOST IMPORTANT LIVING TENOR SAXOPHONIST, AND ONE OF THE TOP MUSICIANS IN THE HISTORY OF JAZZ. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO MENTION ALL OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS, BUT MOST OF YOU OUT THERE KNOW WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT.
FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, ROLLINS HAS STOPPED TOURING AND RECORDING. WHAT WAS HIS MOST PRECIOUS IDENTITY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM HIM. HIS OTHER FORM OF IDENTITY, THAT OF A HUSBAND, WAS REMOVED WHEN HIS LONG-TIME WIFE LUCILLE DIED A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO.
AT THE AGE OF 85, SONNY ROLLINS, LIKE MANY PEOPLE OF HIS GENERATION, HAS TO FACE WHERE HE IS IN LIFE AND CONSIDER WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO HIM, AND WHAT HIS IDENTITY TRULY IS.
THIS IS AN ISSUE WE ALL FACE. WHEN OUR KIDS MOVE OUT, WE LOSE OUR IDENTITY AS PARENTS, IF WE LOSE OUR JOB, WE SUDDENLY WONDER WHAT WE TRULY “ARE.” SONNY WILLINGLY ADDRESSES THESE ISSUES IN THIS INTERVIEW, COMING TO TERMS WITH HIS PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, COMING TO TERMS WITH WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IN THIS LIFE AS WE PREPARE FOR THE NEXT.
HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY?
Every day is an opportunity for us to make ourselves more wise, more kind, more generous. All of these specific things which separate to gross from the fine in life.
YOU STOPPED TOURING A FEW YEARS AGO. WHAT HAPPENED?
I was going to return to playing, but I developed a pulmonary condition, so I haven’t been able to perform for awhile. I’m hoping that it might be resolved and that I might be able to perform again, but right now I’m not performing or playing. I’m not able to practice at all.
SO, YOU AREN’T ABLE TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE DONE YOUR WHOLE LIFE. A LOT OF PEOPLE GO THROUGH SITUATIONS WHERE THEY COME TO A CHANGE IN THEIR IDENTITY. NOW THAT YOU ARE NOT PRESENTLY A “JAZZ TENOR SAXOPHONIST,” HOW HAS YOUR IDENTITY CHANGED? DID YOU GO THROUGH A CRISIS OF IDENTITY?
I’m still looking forward to playing if it’s possible. I still feel that I have not completed my efforts in music. It would really be a sad thing if I could never complete what I was always trying to reach; I didn’t reach my goal in music.
But, on the other hand, I’m perfectly willing to accept the fact if I cannot play again. This took me awhile; it didn’t come easily. I was depressed for awhile after I first couldn’t play. But I’ve come to realize that if I can’t play again then it’s just what happens in the world. We have to accept the knowledge that there is a Bigger Power and a reason why things happen that we don’t understand yet in our lives. We’re just humans. There’s a reason why I can’t play right now, and I have to accept it.
DID YOU SEE PART OF YOUR IDENTITY CHANGE WHEN YOU REALIZED YOU MIGHT NOT BE A “JAZZ MUSICIAN” ANY MORE?
As, I said, I was a little depressed for awhile, and then I was able to become more enlightened. I’m into a lot of philosophical stuff. What’s the point of being interested in the philosophies of life or the Scriptures when in real life you get into a situation and you can’t use it?
I’m in a real life situation to prove whether all of this philosophical stuff that I’ve learned meant anything.
A KEY STATEMENT ABOUT THIS SITUATION WAS WRITTEN BY KING DAVID, “IT WAS GOOD THAT I WAS AFFLICTED, SO THAT I MAY KNOW YOUR WAYS”
Exactly. Exactly. This brings up something else, what I call “One Truth.” It’s the truth that resonates through every human being, legend and thought on this earth. What you just said.
What I realized was that I had to put what I’ve learned to good use. There is a truth, and there’s no reason to deny that. That’s what the problem was when I would think “I just don’t know if this is right or it is wrong.” There is a truth, and I have to find it.
YOU STATED THAT YOU HADN’T ACHIEVED YOUR GOAL? WHAT WAS YOUR GOAL?
I wanted to do more musically. I wanted to do more things on my individual instrument, do more concerts and composing. So many more things to do in music.
YOU ARE NOT PLAYING OR PERFORMING. AS YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST EPISODE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM PLAYING. IS THIS PERIOD SIMILAR TO YOUR OTHER SABBATICALS?
That’s a good question. The first two sabbaticals did not involve my health, so in some ways they were different. In another way they were very similar because I had to do a lot of thinking, in order to realized what I wanted to do.
Now, this time it was promulgated by this health issue. But all of the sabbaticals are rooted in deep thought, and that’s what I am into now.
YOU HAVE TO TAKE TIME TO TAKE INVENTORY OF WHO YOU REALLY ARE AND WHAT YOUR PURPOSE IS. WHERE YOU A MUSICIAN FOR IT’S OWN SAKE, OR FOR ANOTHER PURPOSE THAT YOU CAN BE USED FOR WITHOUT BEING A MUSICIAN?
Exactly.
ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO HELPED YOU IN YOUR PATH WAS THELONIOUS MONK. HOW DID YOU FIRST MEET HIM?
That goes back quite a ways. It was quite early in my career; I was still a pretty young teenager. There was some sort of a little club in Harlem and Monk was playing there. I was also playing there with another small group of kids.
We were playing at the same occasion, but he wasn’t playing with us; Monk was playing separately from us
That was the first time that Monk heard me, and he indicated that he liked what I was playing. Later on I heard Monk playing on a record with my idol, the great Coleman Hawkins, and it was then that I became a disciple of Monk. He was very encouraging to me at that time.
HOW DID HE MENTOR YOU?
Later on, I got a position in his band. He became my guru in that I used to rehearse at Monk’s house and we became friends and would hang out together.
THAT WAS DURING THE BIRTH OF BEBOP. DID YOU THINK YOU GUYS WERE ON THE VERGE OF CHANGING MUSIC, OR WERE YOU JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING?
By playing with Monk and those other musicians I was able to impress them. For instance, there used to be a very famous black band leader named Buddy Johnson. He had a “jump” band. Monk and I were rehearsing at a place in Harlem and Buddy Johnson was there and he heard me play with the band. He came over to our band and he really praised me effusively. Boy, was that a great boost to me, coming from an elder musician!
That’s what really got me into it; my elders approving of what I was doing. That approval started from all the way down in my career, when I was the youngest guy until Jackie McLean came along to join us. I was the youngest guy among my peers like Miles, Dizzy and Monk. But, they approved of what I was doing.
ONE OF YOUR VERY FIRST SESSIONS WAS DURING THOSE FAMOUS BUD POWELL BEBOP RECORDINGS. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?
I think I may have recorded before that with Babs Gonzales. The recording session with Bud was great. I was still a kid….(laughs). When I now think back on playing with the great people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro…
Of course Bud wanted me to be on the album. He chose me, so I had to accept that it meant that I had something to offer. I always had this certain sense that if those guys liked me, I must be doing something right even though I didn’t know what it was.
It was very “heady,” but at the same time I felt that there must be a reason why I was there. Do you know what I mean?
WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEAR TODAY’S MUSICIAN’S PLAYING AND INTERPRETING MONK’S MUSIC?
Once you’ve played with the original…It’s like going to the movies and seeing movies on people that I’ve known. I appreciate the fact that the musicians it; I think it’s a good honor for Monk. It’s really good that it’s being done.
But with the movies, I remember seeing Lady Sings The Blues with Diana Ross as Billie Holiday. I was so appalled that I vowed that I would never go to a movie about some jazz musician who I knew. But, movies are not quite the same as the music, as I’m glad that they’re doing it. I’m glad that they are trying to understand what Monk was trying to offer and present as something a little bit different.
WHAT HAVE BEEN THE TOUGHEST DECISIONS YOU’VE HAD TO MAKE?
I’ve had several. I was involved with illicit drug use at one time. It’s funny now to say that today with so many so called “normal” people getting involved with these opioids today. Back then it was considered the worst thing in the world.
That aside, extricate myself from the evils of opioid addiction, and in so doing it was a struggle; it was a fight. That was something. I had to also give up smoking cigarettes; it was part of my personal development.
YOU AND QUINCY JONES PLAYED WITH QUINCY JONES. DID YOU TWO EVER CROSS PATHS?
I’ve told Quincy about a story, and he’s not too happy with it. We were playing in Philadelphia with Max Roach’s group, I believe. It was in a club called The Showboat. He was playing in a club called Peps with Dizzy Gillespie. After the shows there was a train back to New York. We had to get to the station fast as it was the last train.
So, from two different clubs Quincy and I ran down to the train station, and just as we got there the train was pulling out. So we got stuck there. Quincy doesn’t like that story because it reminds him of something that went wrong in his life! (laughs)
YOU’RE NOW PUTTING TOGETHER ALL OF THESE “ROAD SHOW” ALBUMS. WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEAR YOUR PLAYING?
Horror.(laughs) Horror and disappointment. I’m my biggest critic; I always want to do something better.
But, I had no choice but to put out these things since I’m not playing at the moment. I had to keep a recording on the scene. Henceforth came the “Road Show” series.
LET’S TALK ABOUT ANOTHER IDENTITY CHANGE THAT YOU WENT THROUGH. HOW DID YOU RECOVER AFTER YOUR WIFE OF MANY YEARS, LUCILLE, DIED?
My wife was sick for a certain period of time; in other words, she didn’t die suddenly. So, I was given a little idea of what it was going to be like. She didn’t want to go to the hospital when she was ill, and I had emergency people that were there several times. It was a long experience of trying to realize what it would be life to not have her with me.
Finally, they came, and I was right there with her. It was a very interesting experience, if I could put it that way. We lived in a small farmhouse in upstate New York. After my wife passed away, I had a vision of her there, and I believe in the afterlife. It sort of eased the concept of death.
IF THERE IS NO FINAL JUDGMENT OF A HEAVEN AND A HELL, THEN LIFE IS A CRUEL JOKE
Exactly, and heaven and hell can be described not only physical, but ways of thinking and relational positions.
WHAT ADVICE OR TEACHINGS DO YOU THINK THAT THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS NEED TO HEAR THAT THEY AREN’T GETTING?
That verse from King David is one of those universal truths, and universal truths are where you have to go. Getting involved with things that happen in the world every day and those daily occurances in this world that we live in…that’s really to be avoided if you can.
I would tell the younger people always to learn the universal truths, like “Do unto others as you’d like others to do unto you.” If you can live like that, that’s Number One. Then, you’re not taking advantage of anybody and you’re not trying to do anything that’s going to hurt other people.
That really works. People are now hurting other people; bombing, killing, raping and shooting. That what this present world is. I know how people are. But, if you try to live in the way of these universal truths, then you’ll be better at whatever you do. Whether you’re doing in your life.
I understand that to live like that is hard, because everyone is in such different places. Whatever I’ve learned in my life, I have learned that it’s better to kind to others than to be unkind. I didn’t read that in a book; it’s been shown to me. You don’t have to mess over other people. That’s the best way to go, because it’s a universal truth.
It’s like King David saying we need to be afflicted to understand God. It’s just the way we learn as human beings in the universe. It doesn’t matter how “great” or “little” we are; we’re all humans.
I would also tell people that they need to have some sort of a moral foundation or background for the life that you live. For whatever you want to be.
MY DAD, WHO IS FROM YOUR GENERATION, USED TO SAY, “EVENTUALLY, YOU’RE GOING TO LOSE EVERYTHING; YOUR FAMILY, YOUR CAREER, YOUR HEALTH AND YOUR POSESSIONs. THE ONLY THING YOU TAKE WITH YOU TO THE NEXT WORLD IS YOUR SOUL, SO YOU BETTER TAKE CARE OF IT.”
That’s exactly true. That’s another universal truth that needs to be taught. One truth again!
AS JESUS SAID, “WHAT DOES IT PROFIT A MAN IF HE GAINS THE WHOLE WORLD, BUT FORFEITS HIS SOUL?”
This is another universal truth. We are born alone and we’re going to leave this planet alone. You can’t take your mother, wife or children for help. It’s you!
THROUGHOUT HIS WHOLE CAREER, SONNY ROLLINS HAS LOOKED FOR AN IDENTITY BEYOND THE TENOR SAX. HAVING TAKEN TWO SABBATICALS IN HIS CAREER, HE REALIZED THAT THERE WAS MORE TO LIFE THAN MAKING MUSIC, NO MATTER HOW DEEPLY ENJOYABLE THAT CAN BE. HAVING THAT TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM (HOPEFULLY TEMPORARILY) HE NOW IS FOCUSING ON HIS TRUE IDENTITY, THAT OF A CHILD OF GOD.
SOMETIMES, AS KING DAVID POINTS OUT, WE NEED AFFLICTIONS AND TRIALS TO COME IN ORDER FOR US TO FIGURE OUT WHAT OUR TRUE IDENTITY IS. IN THAT SENSE, ROLLINS HAS BEEN BLESSED TO BE GIVEN THAT OPPORTUNITY. SOME OF US NEVER STOP TO PONDER THESE ESSENTIAL TRUTHS, AND LIVE A LIFE LESS WORTHY OF OUR CALLING. SONNY ROLLINS WOULD LIKE NOHTING MORE THAN TO HAVE HIS EXAMPLE WAKE ALL OF US UP TO LOOK AT OURSELVES, AND OUR GOD, TO RE-ESTABLISH NOT ONLY WHO, BUT WHOSE, WE ARE.