THE ROLE OF A JAZZ PIANIST IS AS NUMEROUS AS THE COLORS OF A PRISM
IF YOU’RE A FAN OF TODAY’S MUSIC, IT’S A SAFE BET THAT YOU’VE HEARD THE IVORIES OF SULLIVAN FORTNER, AS HE’S ONE OF THE MOST IN DEMAND ACCOMPANISTS IN JAZZ. VOCALISTS LIKE JAZZMEIA HORN, CECILE MCLORIN SALVANT AND LAUREN HENDERSON, AS WELL AS MUSICIANS INCLUDING ROY HARGROVE HAVE TAPPED FORTNER FOR HIS TALENTS, AND HE HAS PROVIDED A PLENTY.
MEANWHILE, HIS OWN ALBUMS REFLECT A DIFFERENT SET OF COLORS FROM HIS PALATE. LAST YEAR’S SOLO GAME FEATURED MR. FORTNER IN AN EXPERIMENTAL MOOD, USING ELECTRONICS AND FREE FORM PLAYING, WHEREAS HIS RECENT RELEASE SOUTHER NIGHTS CAPTURES HIM IN A SWINGING TRIO SESSION WITH BASSIST PETER WASHINGTON AND DRUMMER MARCUS GILMORE, NEVER PLAYING TOGETHER BEFORE RECORDING ON STAGE. TALK ABOUT IMPROVISATION!
WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO MEET UP WITH SULLIVAN, AND HE SHARED HIS INSPIRATIONS, MOTIVATIONS AND DIRECTIONS. AS LIKE HIS WORK AS A LEADER AND ACCOMPANIST, HIS TIME WITH US WAS MELODIC AND INVITING.
I FIRST SAW YOU WITH ROY HARGROVE
I did that band for seven years.
HOW DID YOU TWO MEET?
I first met him at a jam session on this place on 93rd Street and Broadway, called Cleopatra’s Needles. A friend of mine introduced me to Roy, a fantastic piano player named Rodney Kendrick.
I used to play midnight on Fridays and Saturdays at this club, and one night he brought Roy, who just stood by the piano. He asked for my phone number, and that was it. This was February of 2009
Fast forward a few months, and I’m on the road with Stefon Harris when I get the phone call from (Manager) Larry Clothier telling me that Roy’s pianist at the time, Jonathan Batiste, recommended that I fill in for 1 ½ months of dates. I did it and they put me on rotation for awhile. By January of 2011, they said “This is your gig if you want it”
DID YOU FEEL SELF CONSCIOUS WHEN HE WAS WATCHING YOU?
I’m always self conscious when people are watching, even now. Especially of they watch me and they’re quiet! (laughs) There’s no facial expression; they just stand there and stare.
Roy was really quiet and just listened.
*********
“I’m always self conscious when people are watching, even now. Especially of they watch me and they’re quiet! (laughs)”
*********
WHEN YOU JOINED HIM, DID HE GIVE YOU ANY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS? WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM HIM?
Roy didn’t really talk.
One time he got really angry at the entire band, and he went down the list to give each of us one thing to think about
The only thing that I remember him telling me was to have at least 20 different endings to a ballad. He also told me to figure out how to come up with the right tempo with ballads
Fortunately, I was prepared to play with Roy because I had played with a few trumpet players before, especially at Oberlin as I played with Marcus Belgrave and Theo Croker. They prepared me for Hargrove’s scenario.
Roy would just kind of teach me the songs and then say, “You got it? Cool. Teach it to the bass player” That was it.
*******
“have at least 20 different endings to a ballad”
*******
WHY DO YOU THINK HE TOLD YOU TO COME UP WITH 20 ENDINGS?
I think he wanted me to think creatively. He wanted to be sure that I had enough room to be creative and that I would think about how I would end songs
The hardest thing to do is to start a song and end it. The end is like putting a ribbon or bow on top of a present. Just wrap it up, don’t spend a whole lot of time lollygagging
You listen to Ronnie Matthews , McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Art Tatum, Erroll Garner, Bud Powell or Larry Willis, all of these guys that Roy liked. You can hear signature endings. He wanted me to figure out a signature for myself.
YOU GREW UP IN NEW ORLEANS. HOW DID THAT EFFECT YOUR MUSICALITY AND WORLDVIEW?
I didn’t grow up in a jazz tradition, so to speak. I was the only jazz musician in my family
Everyone that I grew up with was associated with the church scene, so I grew up playing gospel
Gospel music has in it an ingrained aesthetic unto itself. It’s very much about ear training, about mood and place settings, and it’s very much about being an accompanist and a supporter of a role. That’s what I learned. I learned how to back up a singer, and also how to be a kind of one man band
In the church that I grew up in, we didn’t have a drummer. I was only ten years old, so for the first 2-3 years I was just learning to play with only piano and organ, so I had to figure out ways to be a one man band and keep time by myself. Which what I still apply when I play solo piano, or duo with other people and even in a trio.
That’s the church upbringing.
*********
“I didn’t realize how valuable New Orleans was to culture and to this thing that we call “jazz” until I left to go study it”
*********
THAT’S GOOD. HOW ABOUT NEW ORLEANS ITSELF?
The New Orleans scenario came up much later.
I didn’t realize how valuable New Orleans was to culture and to this thing that we call “jazz” until I left to go study it.
What I found, was that opposed to most situations where “jazz” is more of a performance art, where people sit down and scrutinize it, and if they like the solo they’ll clap and if they don’t like the solo the don’t do anything…
But in New Orleans, it’s very much about dancing, it’s about people involvement. People will sit and they will shout while you play. “Yeah! I like that! Keep doing that!” They’ll really talk back to you. It was very much about a community
You play a certain rhythm and you see people dancing based off of the rhythms. You realize that the rhythms and the music all have to do with the way that people talk down there. It signifies what food they’re eating
New Orleans is not just jazz; it’s also R&B, and also hip hop. It’s kind of a nurturing place for all kinds of styles and types of music, and they all play a part. They all play with each other.
*********
“in New Orleans, it’s very much about dancing, it’s about people involvement. People will sit and they will shout while you play. “Yeah! I like that! Keep doing that!” They’ll really talk back to you. It was very much about a community”
**********
THAT IS LIKE THE CHURCH ALSO. MY PASTER TELLS ME HE CAN TELL IF I DIDN’T LIKE SOMETHING HE PREACHED BECAUSE I DIDN’T SAY “AMEN”
That’s right! He might have said something that stings! It really made you think.
In New York, I had to learn that if people don’t say anything or clap while you’re playing, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t like it. It just means that their thinking
You never know how music touches people. It’s not your job to judge their reaction
GETTING BACK TO CHURCH, HOW HAS THAT EFFECTED YOUR CAREER AND LIFE?
I grew up in pretty much a traditional family background. Both of my parents are heavily involved in church. My dad’s a deacon and teaches Sunday School; mom is a choir director. My aunts and uncles and their brothers and sisters, and THEIR brothers and sisters all sing in church
Our days kind of went like this…Sunday would have two services. Eleven and five or eleven and six. Monday was Bible Study, Wednesday was another Bible Study. We’d have revival meetings and I’d play there. We’d be at church seven days a week
A lot of the principles that they taught me were about commitment. Being somebody that no matter how much it or little it pays, you’re doing it not for money but for service , and service to God
No matter how much it or little it pays, you’re doing it not for money but for service , an act of service, and service to God as well as people; it’s a ministry
**As far as the spiritual practices of the religion itself goes, I still hold to those things. I still play at my church in Brooklyn whenever I’m in town. I’m still doing all of that and it’s a big part of my life.
********
“You never know how music touches people. It’s not your job to judge their reaction”
********
SO WHAT DID YOU DAD SAY ABOUT YOU GETTING A BACHELORS AND A MASTERS DEGREE, BESIDES HAVING TO SHELL OUT A LOT MORE MONEY? HOW DID THOSE DEGREES ENHANCE YOUR CAREER?
My dad didn’t really want me to become a musician
When I graduated from high school, as the valedictorian of my class, with that came a full scholarship to the University of New Orleans for pre-med.
I was going to do that, but at the very last minute, there was a change, maybe the voice of God. But, what happened was at the last minute I decided that I wanted to go to music school, and my dad cried. “Please don’t do this; it’s going to ruin your life! But if this is what you decide that it’s what you want to do, there are two things:
One, you are on your own; I’m not helping you or supporting you in this. I’m not paying you tuition. It’s your responsibility.
The other thing is that you have to promise me that you’re going to get a Master’s Degree, so if all else fails, you will teach”
I did that, and used the school in New York as the means to move there and become a part of the scene there. But I only gave myself five years. I said, “OK, I’ll graduate school and then have three years left”. If anything fails, I can always figure out the next step.
It just turned out that while I was at school, I started working, so I was able to sustain myself. So, 10-12 years later, here I am! (laughs)
*********
“no matter how much it or little it pays, you’re doing it not for money but for service , an act of service, and service to God as well as people; it’s a ministry”
*********
AND YOU LET YOUR DAD KNOW THAT YOU WERE STILL TITHING!
Of course, I can’t “not tithe”, and I can’t “not give” (laughs)
My parents are like this: if you have it, give. A tithe is the least that you can do
WHAT IS IT WITH YOU THAT ALL OF THE SINGERS LIKE? YOU’RE ON ALBUMS BY LAUREN HENDERSON, CECILE MCLOREN SALVANT, BRIA SKONBERG AND SAMARA JOY. YOU’RE A CHICK MAGNET
(laughs) That’s hilarious. I never looked at it like that!
I’m not a “chick magnet”. Each girlfriend that I’ve had, even my current one, is a singer.
I guess because of my background, growing up in church and being exposed to singers in my family, I have a kind of sympathy for singers
I like lyrics; I like melodic relationships to lyrics. I like to play stuff and know what it’s about, and not just play because I know I can
If you study the history of the music, you start to figure out that almost all of the great singers played the piano. There’s a correlation between the voice and instrument, between the voice and what you play. I’ve always had sympathy for that
*******
“The hardest thing to do is to start a song and end it. The end is like putting a ribbon or bow on top of a present. Just wrap it up, don’t spend a whole lot of time lollygagging”
*******
HAVING SAID THAT, LET’S LOOK AT THE SINGERS I’VE MENTIONED. HENDERSON IS MINIMAL IN RANGE AND DYNAMICS; SALVANT IS FLEXIBLE AND PRISMATIC, SKONBERG’S A SWINGER AND JOY IS GOSPEL. THIS IS A VARIETY FOR YOU TO FIT IN WITH!
HOW DO YOU ADAPT TO FOUR SUCH DIFFERENT VOCAL STYLES?
I try to be myself in every scenario, but I do think that each singer brings something different to the table.
As an accompanist, one of the things my teachers taught me was that when you’re accompanying someone, you need to try to get inside of their instrument. Understand their strengths and their weaknesses, and try to enhance those strengths while understanding what their weaknesses are, and using their weaknesses not against them, but being sympathetic to them.
It’s like saying “I know that you’re coming to my house, and I’m going to cook for you, I know that you’re allergic to peanuts. I know I’m not going to cook anything with peanuts in it or around it.”
So it’s just a matter of being sympathetic as opposed to “this is what you can’t do, so blah blah blah”
These are the qualities that you can do, and this is what you can eat, so I’m going to cook food for you based on what I know that you can handle
********
“because of my background, growing up in church and being exposed to singers in my family, I have a kind of sympathy for singers”
*********
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR TIME WITH DONALD HARRISON?
I didn’t have much time with him, but a few occasional one-off run ins with Donald Harrison
There was one incident that completely changed my life
I was playing with Roy (Hargrove) at the Vienne festival in France. Donald Harrison was playing with The Cookers
He was backstage, and I was at the piano. He walked over to me, pulled out his horn and started playing. I thought that was cool.
After a few choruses, he stopped me and said “Sullivan, you’re not harmonically free”
I asked him what he meant by that.
He said, “I want to give you an exercise right now. I want you to play Charlie Parker’s and Bud Powell’s language on “Along Came Betty”, a standard written by Benny Golson.
Within four bars, I got hung up. I couldn’t do it, because the objective was to play only that language. I wasn’t free in the sense that I couldn’t play that song in the bebop language. I had to go back into the shed and learn that language
I started wondering why everyone kept saying that I needed to study bebop. It’s because there’s only four years of it, and that was the deepest it got. Parker, Gillespie, Navarro, Powell, Hawkins, Tadd Dameron and Monk…all of those guys were alike, they were like rocket scientists
Everything that came after that has been an offshoot of them.
That forced me to go back and really spend some time with Barry Harris and really listen to that music. I needed to get a firmer grasp of it to really get it. The more that I listen to it, the more complex it gets
*******
“Parker, Gillespie, Navarro, Powell, Hawkins, Tadd Dameron and Monk…all of those guys were alike, they were like rocket scientists.Everything that came after that has been an offshoot of them.”
********
DID YOU HAVE TO RETRAIN YOUR LEFT HAND, WITH ALL OF THOSE CHORDS?
No, I had to retrain my right hand! I had to retrain my whole way thinking ! I realize that I had to really go back and figure out the building blocks. It was like starting from scratch.
YOUR RECENT DOUBLE DISC ALBUM SHOWS TWO SIDES OF YOU. ONE IS THE “FAMILIAR” SULLIVAN FORTNER, BUT THE OTHER IS MUCH MORE EXPERIMENTAL, FRISKY AND PRISMATIC. WHAT WAS YOUR REASONING BEHIND HAVING TWO SUCH DIFFERENT MUSICAL ENVIRONMENTS
It just happened that way.
The first part that I actually recorded was the electronic part. That was a pandemic project, while everyone was in quarantine in 2021. That spring and summer, I was doing a lot of recording. I had finished Ghost Song, I had done one of Lauren Henderson’s albums, as well as work with Peter Bernstein
I was getting frustrated, because I was watching everyone coming out with albums during the pandemic, and I had nothing!
I was talking to Cecile about it, and she said “Shut up. Go into the studio, lock yourself in there for four days and don’t come out”. Go and Just record!
I told her that I didn’t have any material and she said “Who cares? Write some stuff when you’re there”
But what do I do with it?
Well, I had just started to get interested in Moogs and that kind of stuff by working with a friend Kassa Overall, a drummer that I went to Oberlin with
I called him and told him I was thinking of going into the studio and recording, and asked if he’d come with me.
I had some originals that I had written years before but had never performed, and some other things that I composed in the studio. “SpaceWalk” was something I made up in the studio, so was “King’s Table” as well as a section of “Snakes and Ladders” that I made up while in there. There were a few others.
I then sent it to a bunch of jazz labels, and they just all rejected it. (laughs) After working on it for about a year, I just figured it wasn’t going to work out, and I was just going to sit on it.
*******
“You listen to Ronnie Matthews , McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Art Tatum, Erroll Garner, Bud Powell or Larry Willis, all of these guys that Roy liked. You can hear signature endings. He wanted me to figure out a signature for myself”
********
But Cecile said “No. You’re going to put it out”
I figured they wanted an acoustic piano record, so I called Fred Hersch, who had talked to me about producing a solo piano album. We tried to figure out a time, but he got COVID and I got COVID, but we finally figured out a way to make it work
We then sent both recordings, and (the label) said, “Well, we don’t know what to do with this electronic album” but I just asked “What if we did them both together?” and they said, “why, it doesn’t make sense”
But to me, it made perfect sense
HOW DID IT MAKE SENSE?
Because, every piano player within the past two years has released a solo album. Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran, Ethan Iverson, Fred Hersch released two. Completely acoustic
Mine was going to be something different
It’s all solo; I’m playing every instrument, whether I know how to play it or not! (laughs)
Recording now is so precious, as people want to use everything that the studio has to offer. All of the splicing, editing and as much sound effects as you can get.
I wanted to use every instrument and every keyboard in the studio, whether I knew how to or not, and just see what happens.
That in conjunction with the solo album, made it so the electronic album couldn’t stand on its own, but with the acoustic album it made it different from what everyone else was doing. I felt this was probably the best bet.
*******
“I was talking to Cecile about it, and she said “Shut up. Go into the studio, lock yourself in there for four days and don’t come out”. Go and Just record!”
********
HAVE YOU GONE BACK AND LISTENED TO IT?
I never really like to spend a whole lot of time listening back and basking in the glory or the failures of the albums. It’s more like the albums are the children that I’ve given life to, and once they’ve been given birth, I just let them grow
But if I am to say anything about this album, this is the first time that I’ve ever recorded something where I was completely left up to my own antics. I didn’t have any advice from anybody. Every decision that was made on the album was mine, from the arrangements on the acoustic album on.
I think for that reason, I’m most proud of this work, than any other thing I’ve recorded
******
“I like to play stuff and know what it’s about, and not just play because I know I can”
*******
A RECORDING IS LITERALLY A “RECORD” OF WHERE YOU CURRENTLY ARE AS A HUMAN AND MUSICIAN
And what I’m thinking about
DO YOU EVER GO ON TOUR ON YOUR OWN, LIKE IN CALIFORNIA?
I hope to.
My agent, Chris Mees, is working on a few things to come over
IS THERE ANY MUSICIAN, LIVING OR DEAD, YOU WOULD PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?
There are way too many.
I would like to see the flamenco singer Camaron de la Isla. I would easily pay $1000 to see Art Tatum play
I may not pay $1000 to see him perform, but I’d pay $1000 for a three hour lecture with Leonard Bernstein. I’d pay that $10,000 just to sit with Johanne Sebastian Bach, and then $1000 for the translator!
*******
“I’d pay that $10,000 just to sit with Johanne Sebastian Bach, and then $1000 for the translator!”
*******
WHO ELSE WOULD YOU LIKE TO JUST SIT DOWN AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Prince.
He had to overall artist mentality. He was totally abandoned to be himself. Whether you like it or not! (laughs)
I actually had a chance to meet him!
My first gig with Roy Hargrove was in Minneapolis. Prince sat right behind me, and he told me that liked my playing but he hated my shirt! (laughs)
everything about him was artistic. His music was extremely artistic, and his overall presence was not just music, it was art.
*********
“My first gig with Roy Hargrove was in Minneapolis. Prince sat right behind me, and he told me that liked my playing but he hated my shirt! (laughs)”
********
HOW ABOUT SOMEONE NOT MUSICAL?
I’d want to sit down with Dr. Martin Luther King
I’d love to sit and talk to (the painter) Caravaggio. I love his sensibility of light. I’d like to sit with Picasso also.
Hanging out with Cecile has taught me that a lot of these art forms are very connected to each other
I’d love to sit with Shakespeare, although I probably wouldn’t understand a word that he was saying. I’d just sit there in silence and try to figure out “did you really talk like this, in iambic pentamer?” (laughs)
ARE THERE ANY BOOKS THAT YOU’VE READ YOU WISH OTHERS WOULD READ?
That’s one thing about me; I’m not a very big reader, but I am trying to get into it
One book that I have been reading is Wuthering Heights, after years and years of recommendations from Cecile
******
“I listen for the first note”
*******
WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A PIANIST AND WHAT IS YOUR PET PEEVE?
I listen for a personality, sound and touch. I listen for time, and for joy,
One of the pet peeves that I have is that a lot of time piano players, especially young ones, play so seriously. It can get depressing at times.
*Even Horowitz and Schiff have a personality that is there, a sense of happiness, laughter and joy when playing, even when they’re playing something dark
********
“One of the pet peeves that I have is that a lot of time piano players, especially young ones, play so seriously. It can get depressing at times”
********
WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
What gives me the most joy just playing.
I may look like I’m not happy at times, but I’m really in my happiest place when I’m playing
WHAT FUTURE GOALS DO YOU HAVE?
I’m going back into the studio to record with my current trio. Tyrone Allen is on bass and Kayvon Gordon on drums. It’s going to be produced by Derrick Hodge
It’s not going to be a double album, but somehow we’re going to create an album with two different rhythm sections. I recorded a gig at the Vanguard back in July with Marcus Gilmore/b and Peter Washington/dr. So, I’m going to figure out how to meld those two records into one
That’s in my mind, but I’m not sure how it’s going to happen
I’d like to do a choral album with my family. That’s something I’m working on and gearing up to writing for.
IS YOUR DAD HAPPY WITH WHERE YOU ARE IN YOUR CAREER?
He’s very happy now!
WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SAY AT YOUR MEMORIAL SERVICE?
I was kind, nice and giving to people. That I gave everything that I had to whoever needed it. Whatever they used it for wasn’t up to me
I just give, and let God deal with the rest.
*********
“I just give, and let God deal with the rest”
*********
SULLIVAN FORTNER SHOWS HIMSELF TO BE AN ARTIST WHO BRINGS HIS FAITH TO HIS MUSIC. AS A PILGRIM, HE FOLLOWS THE VOICE OF HIS GOD AND SAVIOR, AND IN THE PROCESS, BOTH MUSICIAN AND AUDIENCE, LIKE PHAROAH DID WITH JOSEPH CAN SEE GOD’S FAVOR UPON HIM. WHETHER HE IS SOLO, WITH A GROUP OR SUPPORTING A VOCALIST, THERE IS SOUL IN HIS SOUND. ISN’T THAT THE GOAL OF EVERY PILGRIM?