AFTER OVER HALF A CENTURY OF SINGING AND SWINGING, THE MANHATTAN TRANSFER HAS DECIDED TO STOP TOURING, WITH THEIR LATEST ALBUM, FIFTY, IS A SALUTE TO THE TWO AND A HALF SCORE OF MUSICAL SCORES IN THEIR CATALOG.
LOVED BY POP FANS IN BOTH EUROPE AND THE US, THE MANHATTAN TRANSFER HAS ALWAYS HAD A DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE JAZZ POLICE. INITIALLY DISMISSED IN THE EARLY DAYS AS A NOSTALGIA/KITSCH GROUP, WITH DOO WOP HITS LIKE “OPERATOR”, AND EVEN HOSTING THEIR TELEVISION SHOW IN THE 1970S, THEY GOT A SECOND LOOK WHEN THEY TOOK ON WEATHER REPORT’S “BIRDLAND” AND THEN THREW DOWN THE GAUNTLET WITH A SERIES OF ALBUMS THAT MIXED RETRO BEBOP WITH PROGRESSIVE JAZZ AS ON VOCALESE.
EVEN IN THE LATER YEARS, THE TRANSFERS STRETCHED MUSICAL BOUNDARIES, WITH A TAKE OF MILES DAVIS’ “TUTU” THAT IS SIMPLY JAW DROPPING.
ONE OF THE CHARTER MEMBERS, ALAN PAUL, TOOK SOME TIME TO REFLECT ON THE GROWTH AND HISTORY OF THE TEAM, AND LIKE THE VOCAL QUARTET, HE WAS ACCESIBLE, CLEVER AND CREATIVE.
COMPARE THIS LAST RECORDING OF YOURS WITH YOUR FIRST ONE 50 YEARS AGO. HOW WERE THEY DIFFERENT?
They were totally different in a way. The first album, our debut, was raw. There was an innocence to it.
A lot of material on that first album were songs that we were performing live. The new one is an entirely different animal. This one is with a symphony, with the WDR Orchestra. On it, we pay homage to our career, but the album re-invents it. It has 50 years of our maturity and experience coming into wonderful and beautiful homage to our band.
. WHEN YOU FIRST JOINED THE BAND, WERE YOU TOLD WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF YOU, OR DID YOU JUST JUMP IN?
We first got together in 1972, and the album was done in 1975.
Initially I was doing Grease on Broadway, with the original cast. It was through Laurel Masse’ that we got together. She was dating the drummer in Grease. When we first got together, I wasn’t that interested in being in a group. I always wanted to have a solo career.
But when I got together with everyone and Tim’s Hauser, and we talked about this idea of a concept of doing close four-part harmony and applying It to contemporary music, I was intrigued by that.
I had always loved harmony groups, and the idea of being able to do that was very intriguing to me . Initially, it sounded like a fun thing to do, so I said “OK, let’s do it”.
The group was set up as a democracy; each of us having a say in how we approach things. There were certain goals that we set. We knew that we needed to get a record deal. If we didn’t have a record deal, we felt that we wouldn’t be able to get the exposure and get beyond the New York Metropolitan area.
In order to do that, we needed to get a manager. So, after 2 ½ years of trying to get a record deal, and everyone turning us down, finally Ahmet Ertegun (the founder of Atlantic Records) met us, and that is the rest of the story how it happened.
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“when I got together with everyone…and we talked about this idea of a concept of doing close four-part harmony and applying It to contemporary music, I was intrigued by that”
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THE THING THAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT YOUR BAND IS THAT IT SEEMS TO CHANGE MAJOR DIRECTIONS EVERY FEW YEARS. YOU WERE FIRST A DOO WOP-POP TYPE BAND, THEN YOU WENT INTO MODERN JAZZ, AND HAVE CONTINUED TO MAKE TECTONIC SHIFTS. YOU DID MECCA FOR MODERNS, THEN BIRDLAND AND BROUGHT BACK VOCALESE. WERE THESE CONSCIOUS DECISIONS OR NATURAL PROGRESSIONS?
I see it as transitions for the group.
The first three albums were with Tim, Janis, myself and Laurel Massay. They were all very similar In a sense. The second album was produced by Richard Perry and went more into “pop”.
When Laurel left the group, and Cheryl Bentyne came in, that was a major shift for us.
We had already decided we didn’t want to just keep doing the “retro” stuff. We were listening to more modern music, and were intrigued by the idea of expanding our harmony.
We got together with Jay Graydon, who produced both Extensions and Mecca for Moderns. We consciously said, “Let’s go for it. Let’s break the mold”.
That’s what we did. We broke the mold. We had “Birdland” by Weather Report, and “Twilight Zone” that Jay and I wrote. We pushed into a completely different direction. It was the Extensions album that finally broke us into America.
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“The group was set up as a democracy”
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THAT’S A BIG CHANGE FROM YOUR FIRST ALBUM, WHICH HAD YOU GUYS LOOKING LIKE A “GLITTER ROCK” GROUP.
(laughs) We came out of Glitter Rock, out of that whole underground New York scene. On the Left Side, there were the New York Dolls and on the Right Side, there was us. We were all kind of dressed the same way with the same influence in looks, but musically it was different. We all wore a lot of makeup back then, and all that stuff.
YOUR CHANGE CAME COINCIDENTALLY WHEN I WAS GETTING OUT OF THAT TYPE OF ROCK MUSIC AND INTO MY FIRST TASTE OF JAZZ, IRONICALLY WITH WEATHER REPORT. SO, WHEN I HEARD YOUR ALBUM WITH “BIRDLAND” I COULDN’T BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE EVOLVING WITH ME!
DID YOU FEEL THOSE ALBUMS WERE “SINK OR SWIM” RELEASES FOR YOUR CAREER?
Absolutely. We saw the shift.
From 1976-79 our primary main focus was in Europe. We were huge there, selling millions of records. “Zindy Lou”, the second song from the Coming Out album. “Chanson de’Amore” was a number one hit in England, France and Spain, as well as “Speak Up Mambo”. So, we were playing there a lot, as well as in Australia and New Zealand.
Then when Laurel left the group and Cheryl came in, we did Extensions and Mecca For Moderns there was a major shift because we went from wearing this “glitter rock and “nostalgia” clothes to wearing “Twilight Zone” things that Jean Paul Gautier’ designed for us. (laughs) Space suits! And doing futuristy interpretations of “Tales Tuxedos”.
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“We came out of Glitter Rock, out of that whole underground New York scene. On the Left Side, there were the New York Dolls and on the Right Side, there was us”
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DID THE AUDIENCE CHANGE?
Europe had a hard time holding onto that. They wanted us to stay exactly the same as we were. But we had to change.
But suddenly we were getting played on the radio in America, and we started getting popular in Japan. Asia opened up to us, which had never happened before.
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” We consciously said, “Let’s go for it. Let’s break the mold”.
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THEN AGAIN, YOU MADE AN ARTISTIC CHANGE WITH VOCALESE AND BRAZIL. WAS THAT A NATURAL PROGRESSION?’
It’s always a conscious decision.
Fortunately, being on Atlantic Records, and being “Ahmet’s Group”,(we were like his children) we were given a lot of freedom to go where we wanted. He didn’t diictate to us; a lot of record companies would do that, especially after having songs like ‘”Boy From New York City” going Top Ten and winning a Grammy for us. Of course they loved that success.
But Ahmet Ertugen understood, and trusted us enough on our musical instincts to go to different ***places . He did not want us to do Vocalese, though. He said “You gotta be crazy! You’re going to do just a jazz album?”
But it was the time.
Vocalese was a collaboration with Jon Hendricks. But from the beginning of the group we had done Jon’s music. “Four Brothers” was from Jon. So was “ Doodlin’” . There was always been an awareness of Jon and his group Lambert, Hendricks and Ross. He wrote “Birdland” for us as well.
Hanging with Jon, we felt it was just the right time, after having all of these “pop” hits, to show this other side of ourselves. So, we decided to do a pure, jazz vocalese album.
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“Hanging with Jon (Hendricks) , we felt it was just the right time, after having all of these “pop” hits, to show this other side of ourselves. So, we decided to do a pure, jazz vocalese album”
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AND IT CAUGHT ON!
It was probably our greatest selling album. We had even more Grammy nominations for that at the time, next to Michael Jackson, for Thriller. We were second after that.
AND IT IS IRONIC, BECAUSE THE “JAZZ POLICE” HAS THIS LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU. AND WE WON’T MENTION ANY NAMES! I THINK YOU WON THE JAZZ SNOBS OVER ON THAT ONE.
We did. It solidified us. We proved ourselves to them.
Jazz aficionados can be very snobbish about every other style. Our perspective has always been that great music exists in different genres.
How do you compare Jackie Wilson to Miles Davis? You can’t; they’re both masters in what they do.
Everything that we took on, we would do with that perspective. We were always eclectic.
We all loved of these different styles, Tim, myself, Janis and Cheryl all grew up in a New York metropolitan area, and were imparted with all of this different music.
It was the right time for Vocalese.
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“Jazz aficionados can be very snobbish about every other style. Our perspective has always been that great music exists in different genres”
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HOW ABOUT BRAZIL?
It was the same with Brazil.
We were all, on our own, listening to a lot of Brazilian/Latin music. We said, “Well, if we’re all listening to this, why don’t we do it?”
We did decide to approach it differently.
It would have been easy to just go and do Jobim, Gilberto and the bossa nova. But we were interested in the new composers like Milton Nascimiento, Djavan, Ivan LIns and what they were coming up with. So, that became the focus of the album. We won a Grammy for that as well.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN GIVEN A CHART THAT WAS A GREAT CHALLENGE FOR YOU?
“Body and Soul”
Why? Because the way that it was voiced. We did close part harmony following Coleman Hawkins’ version of it.
His pitch for the solo was complex. In order to stay in close part harmony, especially for the inner voices, the parts were just very hard to remember
FIFTY YEARS IS A LONG TIME TOGETHER FOR ANYTHING. WAS THERE EVER A TIME DURING YOUR RUN THAT SOMEONE WAS THINKING “WE’RE DONE. LET’S JUST WRAP IT UP NOW AS FRIENDS”. WAS THERE EVER A NADIR?
What a lot of people don’t realize is that we have never actually stopped . I think what was challenging for us, and when we thought about it, certainly when Laurel left the group and we didn’t know if we should continue or not, Ahmet said, “Absolutely don’t break up; you’ve all worked too hard.”
When Tim got ill, and when Cheryl got ill. She had cancer twice. Fortunately she’s in remission and has got an absolutely clean bill of health, but at those times it was challenging and we didn’t know what we should do.
We are at a point now where we’re doing this 50th Anniversary World Tour, but we will be stopping our touring after this.
It’s because the world we live in today is much more challenging. It’s harder to tour; what we went through with COVID, and there’s still residue of that. It’s more difficult at this time in the world. We’re not spring chickens anymore, so we won’t tour anymore, but we’ll still be together and probably record again some special things.
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“I think what was challenging for us, and when we thought about it, certainly when Laurel left the group and we didn’t know if we should continue or not, Ahmet said, ‘Absolutely don’t break up; you’ve all worked too hard.’”
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WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IF IT WEREN’T FOR MANHATTAN TRANSFER?
I was first an actor.
When I was a child, I was an actor; I was in the original cast of Oliver on Broadway and was doing a lot of stuff.
But I think my love of film would have drawn me there, as a director or as a writer. I always loved special effects.
If I didn’t sing, I probably would have gone in that direction, as I love film.
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“I always loved special effects”
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WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR WHEN YOU TAKE IN A VOCALIST OR VOCAL GROUP?
I can use Cheyl as an example.
When Laurel left, we auditioned a number of women. What it required for this group was someone that innately knew how to blend. Someone who had really strong solo chops, but also someone who had a personality that we could work with together. Those three elements.
SHE SHOWED HER CHOPS ON “JEAN PIERRE”!
Cheryl is an absolutely amazing singer, as was Laurel . They were different types of singers. Cheryl’s ability to blend, and her dynamics were different than it was with Laurel.
IS THERE A SINGER OR MUSICIAN, LIVING OR DEAD, YOU’D PAY $1000 TO SEE?
I saw Sinatra, I worked with Ella…gotta think about that one.
IS THERE ANYONE LIKE ELLA, FRANK OR SOMEONE ELSE THAT GAVE YOU IMPORTANT ADVICE?
I was always told to persevere
ARE THERE ANY BOOKS YOU’VE READ YOU RECOMMEND TO EVERYONE?
The Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda. Because it says it all in terms of life’s journey.
The Twelfth Planet by Zachariah Sitchin. A book on music by Schoenberg
WHO IN WORLD HISTORY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN FOR AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?
Churchill
WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?
Meditation gives me the most joy. It gives bliss.
WHAT HOBBIES DO YOU HAVE?
Dance. I do Zomba three times a week.
I like to fly fish. Everything I do is Catch and Release
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“I was always told to persevere”
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WHAT COMPOSER OR ARRANGER IMPRESSES YOU THE MOST?
As a songwriter, I’d have to say The Beatles. Lennon and McCartney were prolific writers.
As for composers, I loved Gershwin.
When I was in college studying music, I did a thesis on Gershwin.
I love Dvorak and Stravinsky.
In terms of contemporary film, without doubt Bernard Herrmann.
On our version of “Twilight Zone” on the new album, you have Vince Mendoza, an amazing orchestrator. He was my first choice to orchestrate it, and when I spoke to him, I just said “Bernard Herrmann” and his eyes just lit up, because he is a huge Bernard Herrmann fan.
If you listen to “Twilight Zone” on the new album, he wrote in the very front a homage to Bernard Herrmann
DO YOU HAVE ANY GOALS?
Spending more time with my wife and travelling on our own, where I don’t have to do a gig. Just go and see some place.
I want to make film. I’m working on something now, which I can’t talk about, but it’s a documentary. That’s what I want to do more of.
I’m always writing, always composing. I love to compose music and songs.
.IN MUSIC, THERE TEND TO BE TWO TYPES OF ARTISTS. ONE FINDS A NICHE AND STICKS TO IT. THINK TONY BENNETT. OTHERS, LIKE MILES DAVIS, HERBIE HANCOCK, PAT METHENY AND CHICK COREA, ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW MUSICAL WORLDS TO CONQUER. RARE IS THE VOCALIST, LET ALONE VOCAL GROUP THAT ESCHEWS A PREVIOUSLY SUCCESSFUL STYLE AND TAKES A MUSICAL (AS WELL AS COMMERCIAL) CHANCE. MANHATTAN TRANSFER, WITH ALAN PAUL AS PART OF THE GOLDEN ANNIVERSARIED TEAM, HAS NOT ONLY BEEN SUCCESSFUL WITH THE MUSICAL TIMES, BUT CHANGED WITH THEM, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, CHANGED THEM. IT WAS A TRANSFER THAT WAS TAKEN TO THE END OF THE LINE, AND THE TRIP WAS ONE WORTH TAKING.